I’m fine with smart people talking about intelligent design. It’s all the ignorant religious people that say evolution doesn’t exist and have no reasoning to back it up that get on my nerves.
Randomentity said: intelligent design isn’t science.
god and religion have no place in science.
there, i said it.
Intelligent design is not science. And Ben Steins bullshit line about the courts and educational system against intelligent design is a pretty bold statement. The rhetoric involved in ID is deeply rooted in Christianity and has no place in the education system. It’s unconstitutional.
It’s also ridiculous that parents try to get their kids out of learning about evolution in science class. They are setting up the kids for failure if they choose to go into science in college. Evolution is a central tenet of biology and is a reoccurring theme in biology. It’s a part of cell biology, adaptation, disease systems (especially viruses), agriculture, etc. Basically, by attempting to disallow their children to learn about evolution, they are handicapping them for any sort of future in science.
I have no problems if you choose to believe in intelligent design, but it is purely philosophical and not scientific. My opinion is also pretty strongly biased, being that I’m a graduate student in evolutionary biology and my fellowship is to teach science.
id be curious to hear what evidence these scientists are referring to, but id rather watch a more objective documentary. Ive read some of Ben Stein’s essays, and there’s no way im buying anything from someone who believes Katrina and terrorist attacks are the repercussions of a godless society. The guy is pretty deluded by his own ideology and false sense of oppression, but i may check it out, just to see what the other side has to offer.
derekdeal said: id be curious to hear what evidence these scientists are referring to, but id rather watch a more objective documentary. Ive read some of Ben Stein’s essays, and there’s no way im buying anything from someone who believes Katrina and terrorist attacks are the repercussions of a godless society. The guy is pretty deluded by his own ideology and false sense of oppression, but i may check it out, just to see what the other side has to offer.
Jon Kruse said: I’m fine with smart people talking about intelligent design. It’s all the ignorant religious people that say evolution doesn’t exist and have no reasoning to back it up that get on my nerves.
A friend of mine’s father is a pastor at the local Baptist church... My friend doesn’t believe in God, but the rest of them are all... "Praise Jesus". We had a discussion about Evolution on the way to the bus stop the other day... and we were sitting on at the bus stop waiting, in the car...
And his brother flipped out about how evolution was taught, but ID was just forgotten. And how, evolution was false and ID is the answer. And was FLIPPING OUT literally and got out of the car.
Godmachine said: its like 'shit, this is too vast to comprehend- so instead of being an accepting being, like the bird or the ant- i will create a space daddy who loves me- phew now i feel better'. wtf?
bwaahahahahhahahahahahahahaaha
you know, i like it when my girl calls me her big space daddy...
but i mean come on...who can argue with proof like this
I go to a christian school, and its sad to see that people have to be one extreme or the other.
I am proud that my school teaches evolution and totally understands its importance in creation and how our world revolves. now along side that they teach the 'big bang' theory not out of spite but becuase its the curriculum (unlike ID) and potentially on our government regularated tests at the end of the year. the teachers I have had in biology/chemistry etc. talk in-depth about both sides and actually allow us to decide for ourselves and believe how we want to believe, Which I think is very progressive and open-minded.
Unfortunately, when people hear christian, or the friggin cults that screw our religion... they automatically see how narrow minded we are as a faith.
but its the opposite for me, its about being open to idea’s, abd standing up for what you believe, not out of ignorance but out of faith and evidence we see every day in creation.
I believe in intelligent design, for many reasons not all having to do with my faith, but also becuase of scientific fact and evidence we see everyday.
AndrewOliv said: Unfortunately, when people hear christian, or the friggin cults that screw our religion... they automatically see how narrow minded we are as a faith.
but its the opposite for me, its about being open to idea’s, abd standing up for what you believe, not out of ignorance but out of faith and evidence we see every day in creation.
I believe in intelligent design, for many reasons not all having to do with my faith, but also becuase of scientific fact and evidence we see everyday.
AndrewOliv said: I go to a christian school, and its sad to see that people have to be one extreme or the other.
I am proud that my school teaches evolution and totally understands its importance in creation and how our world revolves. now along side that they teach the 'big bang' theory not out of spite but becuase its the curriculum (unlike ID) and potentially on our government regularated tests at the end of the year. the teachers I have had in biology/chemistry etc. talk in-depth about both sides and actually allow us to decide for ourselves and believe how we want to believe, Which I think is very progressive and open-minded.
Unfortunately, when people hear christian, or the friggin cults that screw our religion... they automatically see how narrow minded we are as a faith.
but its the opposite for me, its about being open to idea’s, abd standing up for what you believe, not out of ignorance but out of faith and evidence we see every day in creation.
I believe in intelligent design, for many reasons not all having to do with my faith, but also becuase of scientific fact and evidence we see everyday.
Intelligent design is not science. I cannot reiterate that enough. Philosophy, yes, but not science.
word up son. i agree with you though, i hate when people say crazy stuff like God is punishing us with things like Katrina. Regardless, i think documentary definitely seems like its going to be really good, we shall see.
Under the rule of separation of Church and State, Intelligent Design has no place being taught in public schools. It’s main point is that Something was guiding Creation. It has no place in standard science, because it’s calling into question unquantifiable properties. you can’t measure a super spiritual all knowing being’s hand in everything. therefore, it can’t exist in science.
I’m Thelemic, so i do believe in something higher, but i also respect the laws of science.
I’m not anti-christian, i’m anti-christians who don’t like me and my free will.
Aniast said:
so do attitudes that try to force their "higher moral" christian views down the throats of school districts.
easy there tiger... thats quite the broad statement, and actually very ignorant. and just so you know the only thing ive raised concern over is the lack of freedom and having an open mind. do you have all the answers? no you dont so stop acting like you do. and no one is trying to shove 'high christian morals' down throats.. morals are morals and christians for the most part try to have the good ones (aside from the cultish losers). so are you saying schools shouldnt have good morals?
and you argue that ID is and has no place in schools because it isnt science... then what the fuck are they teaching the big bang theory and theory of colliding particles.. which in all scientific truth has less proof then the creation theory.
IN FACT.. barely any proof at all, therefore it is more a a guess then it is science.
ok well, obviously T-Shirt designers aren’t the most qualified people to be debating the accuracies of science or pseudo-science. but luckily, we don’t have to...NOVA has done the research for us. this unbiased PBS documentary tells you all you need to know about science versus "intelligent design"(creationism).
this ben stein docu claims that intelligent design is just offering another theory and wondering why it is being shunned. in fact, intelligent design is NOT a theory, it is a critique of a theory (evolution) and offers nothing to the scientific community.
Don’t believe me? then read to the words of one of the leaders of the intelligent design movement, Paul Nelson (grandson of creationist author Byron Christopher Nelson)...
>
if you would like to know more the PBS documentary "Judgement Day: Intelligent Design on Trial" which shows "intelligent design" for what it is, creationism repackaged, is available here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/program.html
the documentary is incredible, but if you don’t have the attention span and would just like to see the smoking guns, i reccomend only watching chapter 10:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/programs/ht/wm/3416_10_220.html once watching this you will never need to waste another second of your life even acknowledging ID as anything more than the garbage pseudo-science that it is. FTW.
Aniast said:
so do attitudes that try to force their "higher moral" christian views down the throats of school districts.
easy there tiger... thats quite the broad statement, and actually very ignorant. and just so you know the only thing ive raised concern over is the lack of freedom and having an open mind. do you have all the answers? no you dont so stop acting like you do. and no one is trying to shove 'high christian morals' down throats.. morals are morals and christians for the most part try to have the good ones (aside from the cultish losers). so are you saying schools shouldnt have good morals?
and you argue that ID is and has no place in schools because it isnt science... then what the fuck are they teaching the big bang theory and theory of colliding particles.. which in all scientific truth has less proof then the creation theory.
IN FACT.. barely any proof at all, therefore it is more a a guess then it is science.
I wasn’t attacking you, but it’s frustrating to me to hear about science teachers under pressure to teach ID and to not teach evolution. It’s actually not very ignorant. If you want I can send you to some sources, and my biggest point is not so much that ID shouldn’t be taught in schools, although it’s unconstitutional, it’s that ID does not consitute actual science and should not be taught as science.
The reason things like the Big Bang and colliding particles are taught in science class is because they are testable ideas. I’m not even concerned with the origin of the universe at this point, but very much worried of the fact that ID complete disregards the idea of evolution. I’ve had quite a few conversations with conservative creationists, and many of them will accept micro-evolution (short-time changes) but not macro-evolution (deep-time changes). That’s a personal belief thing, but them accepting micro-evolution at least lets them understand things like bacterial resistance and viral evolution. That is where the understanding is needed most. If you philosophically disagree that the mitochondria did not develop as an organism and then get incorporated into cells through a symbiotic relationship that’s fine, because deep-time evolutionary theory is a pretty selfish field of science.
You can believe in what ever you want. But I strongly disagree with ID, especially calling it science. And on another note, I really don’t like the atheist "champions" like Richard Dawkins and PZ Myers.
I’m trying really hard to not make this a your beliefs are wrong thing, because they aren’t. You can believe in what ever you want, but ID should not and cannot be taught as science.
If you really want to continue this discussion, I’m more than happy to. I can even start including references of court cases and shit like that. We can even do it in private if you want to hit me up with an email. I hope this all makes sense because I didn’t re-read that shit.
Aniast, you’re a solid thinker, dude. Though we have entirely different outlooks on the situation I think it’s cool that you’re someone who can rationally talk about things and you’re open and accepting to others feelings/theories. Kudos to you, sir!
skull with hair said: ok well, obviously T-Shirt designers aren’t the most qualified people to be debating the accuracies of science or pseudo-science. but luckily, we don’t have to...NOVA has done the research for us. this unbiased PBS documentary tells you all you need to know about science versus "intelligent design"(creationism).
this ben stein docu claims that intelligent design is just offering another theory and wondering why it is being shunned. in fact, intelligent design is NOT a theory, it is a critique of a theory (evolution) and offers nothing to the scientific community.
Don’t believe me? then read to the words of one of the leaders of the intelligent design movement, Paul Nelson (grandson of creationist author Byron Christopher Nelson)...
>
if you would like to know more the PBS documentary "Judgement Day: Intelligent Design on Trial" which shows "intelligent design" for what it is, creationism repackaged, is available here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/program.html
the documentary is incredible, but if you don’t have the attention span and would just like to see the smoking guns, i reccomend only watching chapter 10:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/programs/ht/wm/3416_10_220.html
once watching this you will never need to waste another second of your life even acknowledging ID as anything more than the garbage pseudo-science that it is. FTW.
thanks skully, thats exactly what i was looking for.
Pearls To Pigs said: Aniast, you’re a solid thinker, dude. Though we have entirely different outlooks on the situation I think it’s cool that you’re someone who can rationally talk about things and you’re open and accepting to others feelings/theories. Kudos to you, sir!
agree dude! I must say I did miss understand your your intent with the whole "christian morales" thing. Glad you cleared that up.
And yeah we do believe in different things and I believe in micro-evolution and know it exists, but there are just to many questions then answers for macro-evolution for me to buy into it. and maybe my faith plays a big part but I understand where you are coming from.
Pearls To Pigs said: Aniast, you’re a solid thinker, dude. Though we have entirely different outlooks on the situation I think it’s cool that you’re someone who can rationally talk about things and you’re open and accepting to others feelings/theories. Kudos to you, sir!
agree dude! I must say I did miss understand your your intent with the whole "christian morales" thing. Glad you cleared that up.
And yeah we do believe in different things and I believe in micro-evolution and know it exists, but there are just to many questions then answers for macro-evolution for me to buy into it. and maybe my faith plays a big part but I understand where you are coming from.
Thank you sirs. That’s one of the problems with text, you can add your own inflection and make shit hostile, even though it’s not.
Pearls To Pigs said: Aniast, you’re a solid thinker, dude. Though we have entirely different outlooks on the situation I think it’s cool that you’re someone who can rationally talk about things and you’re open and accepting to others feelings/theories. Kudos to you, sir!
agree dude! I must say I did miss understand your your intent with the whole "christian morales" thing. Glad you cleared that up.
And yeah we do believe in different things and I believe in micro-evolution and know it exists, but there are just to many questions then answers for macro-evolution for me to buy into it. and maybe my faith plays a big part but I understand where you are coming from.
Because I’m a member of the National Center for Science Education and several state science ed. mailing lists I’ve been receiving a bunch of emails about this website:
haha, oh man that looks like it will be even better than jesus camp. i’m a christian, and even i love watching these things to see how crazy people are/act. sadly, not everyone will understand that probably the vast majority of people in that documentary don’t represent the same following of Christ that I (and most people I know) peruse. I look forward to watching it, though haha.
I almost died from a ruptured appendix so I have a hard time believing in intelligent design. If it weren’t for my doctors Id be dead... and the scientists who developed the antibiotics and machinery that kept me alive. Those same scientists who think ID is complete bullshit.
Or I could just take the easy way out and say god did it.
Let me preface my post by saying, I dont' have a problem with christians. I was brought up Christian (a la brainwashed)as a child and most of my friends follow the faith. I support people in what they believe in (minus scientology). I keep an open mind with everything, and I question everything I’m told. A lot of my feelings can be summed up by "An Old Book Misread" by Set Your Goals.
First off, to call this is a documentary would insult actual documentaries. It would be more appropriate to call it propaganda. He goes on a crusade against anyone that doesn’t belive in it and makes up "facts" saying that Hitler used the theory of evolution to holocaust a race.
See when your a scientist, or have a similar mentality of a scientist (a la skeptic). You question everything. Question everything your taught. Don’t just accept what your fed, ask why/how it works! Thats how the theory of evolution came about. Enough people started asking why and found out facts, and after years of study the theory came about to explain the facts. Everything in Science is questioned, looked at from different viewpoints Thats why its science.
"Science (from the Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge") is the effort to discover, understand, or to understand better, how the physical world works"
When you publish science experiments or say stuff without any second opinions, or through testing or facts...you will get frowned upon by your colleagues.
Go on believing in what you believe in, thats cool. Just don’t support this tripe.
I dont care really where we came from - plasma or God. What I do care about is being able to say and think whatever and however I want. So - my interest is peaked whenever one group tries to suppress another - everyone has a right to voice their opinion - and we should support everyones right to make their voices herd. I would be interested to see the film, to get more info and then form my own opinion.
The hard part about this whole thing is that religion (faith, whatever) is something people take so personally. A lot of us base our whole life (and expectations for an afterlife) on it. For me, it is hard to read people bash something I believe in and not get offended and upset. Everyone is granted the right to choose what they believe, though. But the fact that you (we) can disagree and still get along on this site speaks well for our personalities.
Listen to this interview with scientist Eugenie Scott (from the Skepticality podcast) if you’re interested to hear about how she and others were duped into being interviewed for the film.
RikkiB said: Listen to this interview with scientist Eugenie Scott (from the Skepticality podcast) if you’re interested to hear about how she and others were duped into being interviewed for the film.
http://www.skeptic.com/skepticality_download/076_skepticality.mp3
Eugenie Scott is doing a huge public service for the science and education community. She is the head of the National Center for Science Education (NCSE): http://www.ncseweb.org/ which runs and maintains http://www.expelledexposed.com/
NCSE also has a facebook group that posts news about evolution vs ID in schools across the country. A lot of it seems to occur in FL. Sorry guys, your school board blows.
RikkiB said: Listen to this interview with scientist Eugenie Scott (from the Skepticality podcast) if you’re interested to hear about how she and others were duped into being interviewed for the film.
http://www.skeptic.com/skepticality_download/076_skepticality.mp3
Eugenie Scott is doing a huge public service for the science and education community. She is the head of the National Center for Science Education (NCSE): http://www.ncseweb.org/ which runs and maintains http://www.expelledexposed.com/
NCSE also has a facebook group that posts news about evolution vs ID in schools across the country. A lot of it seems to occur in FL. Sorry guys, your school board blows.
Randomentity said: Under the rule of separation of Church and State, Intelligent Design has no place being taught in public schools. It’s main point is that Something was guiding Creation. It has no place in standard science, because it’s calling into question unquantifiable properties. you can’t measure a super spiritual all knowing being’s hand in everything. therefore, it can’t exist in science.
I’m Thelemic, so i do believe in something higher, but i also respect the laws of science.
I’m not anti-christian, i’m anti-christians who don’t like me and my free will.
How so? Is it not free will to have the absolute right to identify with an idea, or thought in this case, which for lack of better words, and in keeping with the context of the text and argument, empathises with the responder? I’d think twice about contradicting myself, especially regarding your so called, "free will" being denoted. Ironic how you are able to unproblematically regurgitate such disregard for the more "radical" branches of modern science, when what you currently believe to be correct was once persecuted in a non-converse manner. Please, your thoughts and views are valid, as are everyones, but you are in no way a martyr for "free will". ID is still not taught at schools, or accepted publically, however, you claim your "free will" is being somewhat hindered. Please. We all know Galileo stated the earth revolved around the sun, and we deem this correct, but it does in no way, revolve around you.
Don’t try to rebuttal to quickly now, I do plan to study Physics in my senior years, so respect of this laws of science is fundamental.
Randomentity said: Under the rule of separation of Church and State, Intelligent Design has no place being taught in public schools. It’s main point is that Something was guiding Creation. It has no place in standard science, because it’s calling into question unquantifiable properties. you can’t measure a super spiritual all knowing being’s hand in everything. therefore, it can’t exist in science.
I’m Thelemic, so i do believe in something higher, but i also respect the laws of science.
I’m not anti-christian, i’m anti-christians who don’t like me and my free will.
How so? Is it not free will to have the absolute right to identify with an idea, or thought in this case, which for lack of better words, and in keeping with the context of the text and argument, empathises with the responder? I’d think twice about contradicting myself, especially regarding your so called, "free will" being denoted. Ironic how you are able to unproblematically regurgitate such disregard for the more "radical" branches of modern science, when what you currently believe to be correct was once persecuted in a non-converse manner. Please, your thoughts and views are valid, as are everyones, but you are in no way a martyr for "free will". ID is still not taught at schools, or accepted publically, however, you claim your "free will" is being somewhat hindered. Please. We all know Galileo stated the earth revolved around the sun, and we deem this correct, but it does in no way, revolve around you.
Don’t try to rebuttal to quickly now, I do plan to study Physics in my senior years, so respect of this laws of science is fundamental.
I think you’re trying to run his last line on his head and putting free will into a context he didn’t intend. I think he meant, if you want to be Christian and willing to agree to disagree, he just doesn’t like christians who try to shove their opinion down their throats.
I don’t want to put words in his mouth but that was the general context at the beginning of this thread. If you want to get into a scientific discussion about this, I’m more than willing to. And planning on studying physics in your senior years isn’t really credentials. Unless that is, your 60s senior years, but I’m assuming you mean senior year of high school or college. Lose the ego and drop credentials when you get a degree or two.
Randomentity said: Under the rule of separation of Church and State, Intelligent Design has no place being taught in public schools. It’s main point is that Something was guiding Creation. It has no place in standard science, because it’s calling into question unquantifiable properties. you can’t measure a super spiritual all knowing being’s hand in everything. therefore, it can’t exist in science.
I’m Thelemic, so i do believe in something higher, but i also respect the laws of science.
I’m not anti-christian, i’m anti-christians who don’t like me and my free will.
How so? Is it not free will to have the absolute right to identify with an idea, or thought in this case, which for lack of better words, and in keeping with the context of the text and argument, empathises with the responder? I’d think twice about contradicting myself, especially regarding your so called, "free will" being denoted. Ironic how you are able to unproblematically regurgitate such disregard for the more "radical" branches of modern science, when what you currently believe to be correct was once persecuted in a non-converse manner. Please, your thoughts and views are valid, as are everyones, but you are in no way a martyr for "free will". ID is still not taught at schools, or accepted publically, however, you claim your "free will" is being somewhat hindered. Please. We all know Galileo stated the earth revolved around the sun, and we deem this correct, but it does in no way, revolve around you.
Don’t try to rebuttal to quickly now, I do plan to study Physics in my senior years, so respect of this laws of science is fundamental.
I think you’re trying to run his last line on his head and putting free will into a context he didn’t intend. I think he meant, if you want to be Christian and willing to agree to disagree, he just doesn’t like christians who try to shove their opinion down their throats.
I don’t want to put words in his mouth but that was the general context at the beginning of this thread. If you want to get into a scientific discussion about this, I’m more than willing to. And planning on studying physics in your senior years isn’t really credentials. Unless that is, your 60s senior years, but I’m assuming you mean senior year of high school or college. Lose the ego and drop credentials when you get a degree or two.
Do you not know how to correctly identify meaning? I only stated my future ambitions to study physics as a way of validating my love for the sciences, and my acceptance of it’s proven findings. So if I may, I would like to tell you to drop the ego, because it seems like your stance is in no way objective. I am planning to study law in the future (after I finish High School). Is that adequate, Sir?
Randomentity said: Under the rule of separation of Church and State, Intelligent Design has no place being taught in public schools. It’s main point is that Something was guiding Creation. It has no place in standard science, because it’s calling into question unquantifiable properties. you can’t measure a super spiritual all knowing being’s hand in everything. therefore, it can’t exist in science.
I’m Thelemic, so i do believe in something higher, but i also respect the laws of science.
I’m not anti-christian, i’m anti-christians who don’t like me and my free will.
How so? Is it not free will to have the absolute right to identify with an idea, or thought in this case, which for lack of better words, and in keeping with the context of the text and argument, empathises with the responder? I’d think twice about contradicting myself, especially regarding your so called, "free will" being denoted. Ironic how you are able to unproblematically regurgitate such disregard for the more "radical" branches of modern science, when what you currently believe to be correct was once persecuted in a non-converse manner. Please, your thoughts and views are valid, as are everyones, but you are in no way a martyr for "free will". ID is still not taught at schools, or accepted publically, however, you claim your "free will" is being somewhat hindered. Please. We all know Galileo stated the earth revolved around the sun, and we deem this correct, but it does in no way, revolve around you.
Don’t try to rebuttal to quickly now, I do plan to study Physics in my senior years, so respect of this laws of science is fundamental.
wait...what?
i’m trying to figure out your point. cuz all you did there was talk in circles and not prove anything.
I was looking at it completely under the constitution. My statement of belief was just there to show that i’m not atheist.
Aniast was correct with what i was trying to say. By all means, worship your big sky daddy, just don’t bring it into my children’s public schools and try to get it taught as truth and science.
Randomentity said: Under the rule of separation of Church and State, Intelligent Design has no place being taught in public schools. It’s main point is that Something was guiding Creation. It has no place in standard science, because it’s calling into question unquantifiable properties. you can’t measure a super spiritual all knowing being’s hand in everything. therefore, it can’t exist in science.
I’m Thelemic, so i do believe in something higher, but i also respect the laws of science.
I’m not anti-christian, i’m anti-christians who don’t like me and my free will.
How so? Is it not free will to have the absolute right to identify with an idea, or thought in this case, which for lack of better words, and in keeping with the context of the text and argument, empathises with the responder? I’d think twice about contradicting myself, especially regarding your so called, "free will" being denoted. Ironic how you are able to unproblematically regurgitate such disregard for the more "radical" branches of modern science, when what you currently believe to be correct was once persecuted in a non-converse manner. Please, your thoughts and views are valid, as are everyones, but you are in no way a martyr for "free will". ID is still not taught at schools, or accepted publically, however, you claim your "free will" is being somewhat hindered. Please. We all know Galileo stated the earth revolved around the sun, and we deem this correct, but it does in no way, revolve around you.
Don’t try to rebuttal to quickly now, I do plan to study Physics in my senior years, so respect of this laws of science is fundamental.
I think you’re trying to run his last line on his head and putting free will into a context he didn’t intend. I think he meant, if you want to be Christian and willing to agree to disagree, he just doesn’t like christians who try to shove their opinion down their throats.
I don’t want to put words in his mouth but that was the general context at the beginning of this thread. If you want to get into a scientific discussion about this, I’m more than willing to. And planning on studying physics in your senior years isn’t really credentials. Unless that is, your 60s senior years, but I’m assuming you mean senior year of high school or college. Lose the ego and drop credentials when you get a degree or two.
Do you not know how to correctly identify meaning? I only stated my future ambitions to study physics as a way of validating my love for the sciences, and my acceptance of it’s proven findings. So if I may, I would like to tell you to drop the ego, because it seems like your stance is in no way objective. I am planning to study law in the future (after I finish High School). Is that adequate, Sir?
It was your last sentence man. It just seems like you are talking down to him. I’m with Randomentity here about your circular argument that should have been based more on meta-physics since you were talking about free will. I know you wanted to use an archaic/famous reference, but the difference here is that Galileo’s idea was testable, where as the existence of a god (or gods) is philosophical and based in faith.
The point of the entire matter is that based on the US constitution, church and state are supposed to be separate. Therefore, public schools should not be teaching intelligent design, which is poorly disguised creationism. Believe what you want, just don’t teach it in the schools.
Since you plan I’m going to law school, I going to assume you like to argue, so I await your response.
Randomentity said: Under the rule of separation of Church and State, Intelligent Design has no place being taught in public schools. It’s main point is that Something was guiding Creation. It has no place in standard science, because it’s calling into question unquantifiable properties. you can’t measure a super spiritual all knowing being’s hand in everything. therefore, it can’t exist in science.
I’m Thelemic, so i do believe in something higher, but i also respect the laws of science.
I’m not anti-christian, i’m anti-christians who don’t like me and my free will.
How so? Is it not free will to have the absolute right to identify with an idea, or thought in this case, which for lack of better words, and in keeping with the context of the text and argument, empathises with the responder? I’d think twice about contradicting myself, especially regarding your so called, "free will" being denoted. Ironic how you are able to unproblematically regurgitate such disregard for the more "radical" branches of modern science, when what you currently believe to be correct was once persecuted in a non-converse manner. Please, your thoughts and views are valid, as are everyones, but you are in no way a martyr for "free will". ID is still not taught at schools, or accepted publically, however, you claim your "free will" is being somewhat hindered. Please. We all know Galileo stated the earth revolved around the sun, and we deem this correct, but it does in no way, revolve around you.
Don’t try to rebuttal to quickly now, I do plan to study Physics in my senior years, so respect of this laws of science is fundamental.
wait...what?
i’m trying to figure out your point. cuz all you did there was talk in circles and not prove anything.
I was looking at it completely under the constitution. My statement of belief was just there to show that i’m not atheist.
Aniast was correct with what i was trying to say. By all means, worship your big sky daddy, just don’t bring it into my children’s public schools and try to get it taught as truth and science.
Did you not just read what I recently wrote? Let me paraphrase. I stated twice, I had respect for the sciences, once inadvertently, and another revealingly. However, I also did, in no way, suggest or allude to, that ID should be taught in schools. Rather conversely, I justified why it should not, until it has been proven. But not seeing the underlying meaning of seems to be the trend. Also, for your information, the word Thelema was a consequence of what that "Big Sky Daddy’s" son taught the people of the time.
Wikipedia said: The word θέλημα (thelema) is of some consequence in the original Greek Christian scriptures, referring to divine and human will. One well-known example is from “The Lord’s Prayer” in Matthew 6:10, “Your kingdom come. Your will (θέλημα) be done, On earth as it is in heaven.”
I hope you know this is purely a debate, and that you don’t translate the above as hostility towards yourself.
just because Crowley chose the greek word, which is in the greek translation of the lord’s prayer doesn’t have any consequence. The Lord’s Prayer speaks of the Divine Will of God, The Thelemic belief system is the divine will of self.
so what exactly is your point, and you have 15 words to explain yourself.
RikkiB said: Listen to this interview with scientist Eugenie Scott (from the Skepticality podcast) if you’re interested to hear about how she and others were duped into being interviewed for the film.
http://www.skeptic.com/skepticality_download/076_skepticality.mp3
Eugenie Scott is doing a huge public service for the science and education community. She is the head of the National Center for Science Education (NCSE): http://www.ncseweb.org/ which runs and maintains http://www.expelledexposed.com/
NCSE also has a facebook group that posts news about evolution vs ID in schools across the country. A lot of it seems to occur in FL. Sorry guys, your school board blows.
I subscribed, but I get plenty of skepticism from PZ Meyers and Greg Laden (to name a couple) on ScienceBlogs. I’ll give it a listen though, maybe it will be better than PZ’s anti-religious dog and pony show.
Randomentity said: just because Crowley chose the greek word, which is in the greek translation of the lord’s prayer doesn’t have any consequence. The Lord’s Prayer speaks of the Divine Will of God, The Thelemic belief system is the divine will of self.
so what exactly is your point, and you have 15 words to explain yourself.
Please don’t tell me how long I have to explain myself.
Obviously, It does have consequences. When did I ever mention the belief system? I mentioned the word.
Randomentity said: just because Crowley chose the greek word, which is in the greek translation of the lord’s prayer doesn’t have any consequence. The Lord’s Prayer speaks of the Divine Will of God, The Thelemic belief system is the divine will of self.
so what exactly is your point, and you have 15 words to explain yourself.
Please don’t tell me how long I have to explain myself.
Obviously, It does have consequences. When did I ever mention the belief system? I mentioned the word.
I know what the word means. I’m still trying to figure out your point.
at this juncture Xenu is pissed
RikkiB said: Listen to this interview with scientist Eugenie Scott (from the Skepticality podcast) if you’re interested to hear about how she and others were duped into being interviewed for the film.
http://www.skeptic.com/skepticality_download/076_skepticality.mp3
Eugenie Scott is doing a huge public service for the science and education community. She is the head of the National Center for Science Education (NCSE): http://www.ncseweb.org/ which runs and maintains http://www.expelledexposed.com/
NCSE also has a facebook group that posts news about evolution vs ID in schools across the country. A lot of it seems to occur in FL. Sorry guys, your school board blows.
I subscribed, but I get plenty of skepticism from PZ Meyers and Greg Laden (to name a couple) on ScienceBlogs. I’ll give it a listen though, maybe it will be better than PZ’s anti-religious dog and pony show.
Hehe, yes, they’re a little lower brow, but I enjoy the characters and their banter ;)
73 Comments
Hybrid said 6 months ago
I don’t want to wait until April 18th...
quakerninja said 6 months ago
Well I’ll be a monkeys uncle....or will I.
Robby-brightglasses said 6 months ago
yeah
Randomentity said 6 months ago
intelligent design isn’t science.
god and religion have no place in science.
there, i said it.
Jon Kruse said 6 months ago
I’m fine with smart people talking about intelligent design. It’s all the ignorant religious people that say evolution doesn’t exist and have no reasoning to back it up that get on my nerves.
AYYOGOLDSTEIN said 6 months ago
This looks real good.
Aniast said 6 months ago
Intelligent design is not science. And Ben Steins bullshit line about the courts and educational system against intelligent design is a pretty bold statement. The rhetoric involved in ID is deeply rooted in Christianity and has no place in the education system. It’s unconstitutional.
It’s also ridiculous that parents try to get their kids out of learning about evolution in science class. They are setting up the kids for failure if they choose to go into science in college. Evolution is a central tenet of biology and is a reoccurring theme in biology. It’s a part of cell biology, adaptation, disease systems (especially viruses), agriculture, etc. Basically, by attempting to disallow their children to learn about evolution, they are handicapping them for any sort of future in science.
I have no problems if you choose to believe in intelligent design, but it is purely philosophical and not scientific. My opinion is also pretty strongly biased, being that I’m a graduate student in evolutionary biology and my fellowship is to teach science.
/end rant
njonas said 6 months ago
hmmm i’m definitely seeing this
derekdeal said 6 months ago
id be curious to hear what evidence these scientists are referring to, but id rather watch a more objective documentary. Ive read some of Ben Stein’s essays, and there’s no way im buying anything from someone who believes Katrina and terrorist attacks are the repercussions of a godless society. The guy is pretty deluded by his own ideology and false sense of oppression, but i may check it out, just to see what the other side has to offer.
manos said 6 months ago
Seems to me far fetched BUT until I see the whole documentary can’t be sure.
Randomentity said 6 months ago
are you serious? link it up!?
derekdeal said 6 months ago
http://oybay.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/ben-steins-essay-on-g-d-society/
Hybrid said 6 months ago
A friend of mine’s father is a pastor at the local Baptist church... My friend doesn’t believe in God, but the rest of them are all... "Praise Jesus". We had a discussion about Evolution on the way to the bus stop the other day... and we were sitting on at the bus stop waiting, in the car...
And his brother flipped out about how evolution was taught, but ID was just forgotten. And how, evolution was false and ID is the answer. And was FLIPPING OUT literally and got out of the car.
dsprad said 6 months ago
That looks interesting; it brings up some good points, especially the part about being confident enough to accept criticism.
Randomentity said 6 months ago
bwaahahahahhahahahahahahahaaha
you know, i like it when my girl calls me her big space daddy...
but i mean come on...who can argue with proof like this
http://www.chick.com/catalog/comics/0106.asp?wpc=0106.asp&wpp=a
Pearls To Pigs said 6 months ago
thats only partially his writing
AndrewOliv said 6 months ago
I go to a christian school, and its sad to see that people have to be one extreme or the other.
I am proud that my school teaches evolution and totally understands its importance in creation and how our world revolves. now along side that they teach the 'big bang' theory not out of spite but becuase its the curriculum (unlike ID) and potentially on our government regularated tests at the end of the year. the teachers I have had in biology/chemistry etc. talk in-depth about both sides and actually allow us to decide for ourselves and believe how we want to believe, Which I think is very progressive and open-minded.
Unfortunately, when people hear christian, or the friggin cults that screw our religion... they automatically see how narrow minded we are as a faith.
but its the opposite for me, its about being open to idea’s, abd standing up for what you believe, not out of ignorance but out of faith and evidence we see every day in creation.
I believe in intelligent design, for many reasons not all having to do with my faith, but also becuase of scientific fact and evidence we see everyday.
Pearls To Pigs said 6 months ago
Aniast said 6 months ago
Intelligent design is not science. I cannot reiterate that enough. Philosophy, yes, but not science.
derekdeal said 6 months ago
he cites billy graham’s daughter, but its his article
Pearls To Pigs said 6 months ago
word up son. i agree with you though, i hate when people say crazy stuff like God is punishing us with things like Katrina. Regardless, i think documentary definitely seems like its going to be really good, we shall see.
Randomentity said 6 months ago
Under the rule of separation of Church and State, Intelligent Design has no place being taught in public schools. It’s main point is that Something was guiding Creation. It has no place in standard science, because it’s calling into question unquantifiable properties. you can’t measure a super spiritual all knowing being’s hand in everything. therefore, it can’t exist in science.
I’m Thelemic, so i do believe in something higher, but i also respect the laws of science.
I’m not anti-christian, i’m anti-christians who don’t like me and my free will.
Enclothe said 6 months ago
This movie is going to be a heap of bullshit.
AndrewOliv said 6 months ago
attitudes like that shape our society
Aniast said 6 months ago
so do attitudes that try to force their "higher moral" christian views down the throats of school districts.
Time Without the E said 6 months ago
He thinks that Katrina and 9-11 happened because of a godless society? Doesnt he know it was a conspiracy by George Bush!
:)
AndrewOliv said 6 months ago
easy there tiger... thats quite the broad statement, and actually very ignorant. and just so you know the only thing ive raised concern over is the lack of freedom and having an open mind. do you have all the answers? no you dont so stop acting like you do. and no one is trying to shove 'high christian morals' down throats.. morals are morals and christians for the most part try to have the good ones (aside from the cultish losers). so are you saying schools shouldnt have good morals?
and you argue that ID is and has no place in schools because it isnt science... then what the fuck are they teaching the big bang theory and theory of colliding particles.. which in all scientific truth has less proof then the creation theory.
IN FACT.. barely any proof at all, therefore it is more a a guess then it is science.
skull with hair said 6 months ago
ok well, obviously T-Shirt designers aren’t the most qualified people to be debating the accuracies of science or pseudo-science. but luckily, we don’t have to...NOVA has done the research for us. this unbiased PBS documentary tells you all you need to know about science versus "intelligent design"(creationism).
this ben stein docu claims that intelligent design is just offering another theory and wondering why it is being shunned. in fact, intelligent design is NOT a theory, it is a critique of a theory (evolution) and offers nothing to the scientific community.
Don’t believe me? then read to the words of one of the leaders of the intelligent design movement, Paul Nelson (grandson of creationist author Byron Christopher Nelson)...
>
if you would like to know more the PBS documentary "Judgement Day: Intelligent Design on Trial" which shows "intelligent design" for what it is, creationism repackaged, is available here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/program.html
the documentary is incredible, but if you don’t have the attention span and would just like to see the smoking guns, i reccomend only watching chapter 10:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/programs/ht/wm/3416_10_220.html
once watching this you will never need to waste another second of your life even acknowledging ID as anything more than the garbage pseudo-science that it is. FTW.
Aniast said 6 months ago
I wasn’t attacking you, but it’s frustrating to me to hear about science teachers under pressure to teach ID and to not teach evolution. It’s actually not very ignorant. If you want I can send you to some sources, and my biggest point is not so much that ID shouldn’t be taught in schools, although it’s unconstitutional, it’s that ID does not consitute actual science and should not be taught as science.
The reason things like the Big Bang and colliding particles are taught in science class is because they are testable ideas. I’m not even concerned with the origin of the universe at this point, but very much worried of the fact that ID complete disregards the idea of evolution. I’ve had quite a few conversations with conservative creationists, and many of them will accept micro-evolution (short-time changes) but not macro-evolution (deep-time changes). That’s a personal belief thing, but them accepting micro-evolution at least lets them understand things like bacterial resistance and viral evolution. That is where the understanding is needed most. If you philosophically disagree that the mitochondria did not develop as an organism and then get incorporated into cells through a symbiotic relationship that’s fine, because deep-time evolutionary theory is a pretty selfish field of science.
You can believe in what ever you want. But I strongly disagree with ID, especially calling it science. And on another note, I really don’t like the atheist "champions" like Richard Dawkins and PZ Myers.
I’m trying really hard to not make this a your beliefs are wrong thing, because they aren’t. You can believe in what ever you want, but ID should not and cannot be taught as science.
If you really want to continue this discussion, I’m more than happy to. I can even start including references of court cases and shit like that. We can even do it in private if you want to hit me up with an email. I hope this all makes sense because I didn’t re-read that shit.
PS I ain’t ignant
Pearls To Pigs said 6 months ago
Aniast, you’re a solid thinker, dude. Though we have entirely different outlooks on the situation I think it’s cool that you’re someone who can rationally talk about things and you’re open and accepting to others feelings/theories. Kudos to you, sir!
godmachine said 6 months ago
LOUD NOISES
derekdeal said 6 months ago
thanks skully, thats exactly what i was looking for.
AndrewOliv said 6 months ago
agree dude! I must say I did miss understand your your intent with the whole "christian morales" thing. Glad you cleared that up.
And yeah we do believe in different things and I believe in micro-evolution and know it exists, but there are just to many questions then answers for macro-evolution for me to buy into it. and maybe my faith plays a big part but I understand where you are coming from.
gabroll said 6 months ago
I just spit on my monitor by laughing out loud at this.
Andrew, Joe; Matthew 13:13-15
At least our lives aren’t being threatened in this society for believing, although perhaps that would be better...
Aniast said 6 months ago
Thank you sirs. That’s one of the problems with text, you can add your own inflection and make shit hostile, even though it’s not.
chrisrushing said 6 months ago
more communities need people like aniast!
im quite interested to see this.
derekdeal said 6 months ago
ive had Judgement Day: Intelligent Design on Trial playing in the background....really good doc!
edword said 6 months ago
yeah I did the same. It was really good, no doubt!
skull with hair said 6 months ago
yeah i love this documentary so much, its rare you get the fucking physical evidence of this kind of bullshit
zreed said 5 months ago
But my friends...
Don’t be to sure...
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=six-things-ben-stein-doesnt-want-you-to-know&sc=rss
...Interesting?
This article alone has made me loose interest in this documentary.
Aniast said 5 months ago
Because I’m a member of the National Center for Science Education and several state science ed. mailing lists I’ve been receiving a bunch of emails about this website:
http://www.expelledexposed.com/
I haven’t looked at it, too busy with papers and work.
Randomentity said 3 months ago
round one, FIGHT!
Pearls To Pigs said 3 months ago
haha, oh man that looks like it will be even better than jesus camp. i’m a christian, and even i love watching these things to see how crazy people are/act. sadly, not everyone will understand that probably the vast majority of people in that documentary don’t represent the same following of Christ that I (and most people I know) peruse. I look forward to watching it, though haha.
godmachine said 3 months ago
I believe in The Foot. He lives in the sky. I have clever arguments to prove he exists.
manos said 3 months ago
Looking forward to watching this one:
george said 3 months ago
I almost died from a ruptured appendix so I have a hard time believing in intelligent design. If it weren’t for my doctors Id be dead... and the scientists who developed the antibiotics and machinery that kept me alive. Those same scientists who think ID is complete bullshit.
Or I could just take the easy way out and say god did it.
mitchbones said 3 months ago
Let me preface my post by saying, I dont' have a problem with christians. I was brought up Christian (a la brainwashed)as a child and most of my friends follow the faith. I support people in what they believe in (minus scientology). I keep an open mind with everything, and I question everything I’m told. A lot of my feelings can be summed up by "An Old Book Misread" by Set Your Goals.
First off, to call this is a documentary would insult actual documentaries. It would be more appropriate to call it propaganda. He goes on a crusade against anyone that doesn’t belive in it and makes up "facts" saying that Hitler used the theory of evolution to holocaust a race.
http://www.expelledexposed.com/
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=ben-steins-expelled-review-john-rennie
See when your a scientist, or have a similar mentality of a scientist (a la skeptic). You question everything. Question everything your taught. Don’t just accept what your fed, ask why/how it works! Thats how the theory of evolution came about. Enough people started asking why and found out facts, and after years of study the theory came about to explain the facts. Everything in Science is questioned, looked at from different viewpoints Thats why its science.
"Science (from the Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge") is the effort to discover, understand, or to understand better, how the physical world works"
When you publish science experiments or say stuff without any second opinions, or through testing or facts...you will get frowned upon by your colleagues.
Go on believing in what you believe in, thats cool. Just don’t support this tripe.
layne said 3 months ago
I dont care really where we came from - plasma or God. What I do care about is being able to say and think whatever and however I want. So - my interest is peaked whenever one group tries to suppress another - everyone has a right to voice their opinion - and we should support everyones right to make their voices herd. I would be interested to see the film, to get more info and then form my own opinion.
molasses4masses said 3 months ago
P.S. The movie has been in and out of theaters already.
layne said 3 months ago
ha! oh well, guess the I came out unscathed ;) never even saw it advertised in any theaters around here
molasses4masses said 3 months ago
The hard part about this whole thing is that religion (faith, whatever) is something people take so personally. A lot of us base our whole life (and expectations for an afterlife) on it. For me, it is hard to read people bash something I believe in and not get offended and upset. Everyone is granted the right to choose what they believe, though. But the fact that you (we) can disagree and still get along on this site speaks well for our personalities.
RikkiB said 3 months ago
I’m sorry, are you being serious about this film?
+1 to Mitchbones for posting expelledexposed.com
RikkiB said 3 months ago
Listen to this interview with scientist Eugenie Scott (from the Skepticality podcast) if you’re interested to hear about how she and others were duped into being interviewed for the film.
http://www.skeptic.com/skepticality_download/076_skepticality.mp3
ThinkBaker said 3 months ago
Celery tastes like grass...
mitchbones said 3 months ago
I can’t tell if your mocking me, or giving me a compliment :\
Aniast said 3 months ago
Eugenie Scott is doing a huge public service for the science and education community. She is the head of the National Center for Science Education (NCSE): http://www.ncseweb.org/ which runs and maintains http://www.expelledexposed.com/
NCSE also has a facebook group that posts news about evolution vs ID in schools across the country. A lot of it seems to occur in FL. Sorry guys, your school board blows.
RikkiB said 3 months ago
Sorry, compliment ;) I’m 100% against this 'film'.
RikkiB said 3 months ago
Have you ever checked out The Skeptics' Guide to the Universe podcast? I’m on a recruiting drive ;)
deepee said 3 months ago
How so? Is it not free will to have the absolute right to identify with an idea, or thought in this case, which for lack of better words, and in keeping with the context of the text and argument, empathises with the responder? I’d think twice about contradicting myself, especially regarding your so called, "free will" being denoted. Ironic how you are able to unproblematically regurgitate such disregard for the more "radical" branches of modern science, when what you currently believe to be correct was once persecuted in a non-converse manner. Please, your thoughts and views are valid, as are everyones, but you are in no way a martyr for "free will". ID is still not taught at schools, or accepted publically, however, you claim your "free will" is being somewhat hindered. Please. We all know Galileo stated the earth revolved around the sun, and we deem this correct, but it does in no way, revolve around you.
Don’t try to rebuttal to quickly now, I do plan to study Physics in my senior years, so respect of this laws of science is fundamental.
Aniast said 3 months ago
I think you’re trying to run his last line on his head and putting free will into a context he didn’t intend. I think he meant, if you want to be Christian and willing to agree to disagree, he just doesn’t like christians who try to shove their opinion down their throats.
I don’t want to put words in his mouth but that was the general context at the beginning of this thread. If you want to get into a scientific discussion about this, I’m more than willing to. And planning on studying physics in your senior years isn’t really credentials. Unless that is, your 60s senior years, but I’m assuming you mean senior year of high school or college. Lose the ego and drop credentials when you get a degree or two.
Aniast said 3 months ago
http://www.apple.com/trailers/lions_gate/religulous/
deepee said 3 months ago
Do you not know how to correctly identify meaning? I only stated my future ambitions to study physics as a way of validating my love for the sciences, and my acceptance of it’s proven findings. So if I may, I would like to tell you to drop the ego, because it seems like your stance is in no way objective. I am planning to study law in the future (after I finish High School). Is that adequate, Sir?
Randomentity said 3 months ago
wait...what?
i’m trying to figure out your point. cuz all you did there was talk in circles and not prove anything.
I was looking at it completely under the constitution. My statement of belief was just there to show that i’m not atheist.
Aniast was correct with what i was trying to say. By all means, worship your big sky daddy, just don’t bring it into my children’s public schools and try to get it taught as truth and science.
Aniast said 3 months ago
It was your last sentence man. It just seems like you are talking down to him. I’m with Randomentity here about your circular argument that should have been based more on meta-physics since you were talking about free will. I know you wanted to use an archaic/famous reference, but the difference here is that Galileo’s idea was testable, where as the existence of a god (or gods) is philosophical and based in faith.
The point of the entire matter is that based on the US constitution, church and state are supposed to be separate. Therefore, public schools should not be teaching intelligent design, which is poorly disguised creationism. Believe what you want, just don’t teach it in the schools.
Since you plan I’m going to law school, I going to assume you like to argue, so I await your response.
deepee said 3 months ago
Did you not just read what I recently wrote? Let me paraphrase. I stated twice, I had respect for the sciences, once inadvertently, and another revealingly. However, I also did, in no way, suggest or allude to, that ID should be taught in schools. Rather conversely, I justified why it should not, until it has been proven. But not seeing the underlying meaning of seems to be the trend. Also, for your information, the word Thelema was a consequence of what that "Big Sky Daddy’s" son taught the people of the time.
I hope you know this is purely a debate, and that you don’t translate the above as hostility towards yourself.
Randomentity said 3 months ago
just because Crowley chose the greek word, which is in the greek translation of the lord’s prayer doesn’t have any consequence. The Lord’s Prayer speaks of the Divine Will of God, The Thelemic belief system is the divine will of self.
so what exactly is your point, and you have 15 words to explain yourself.
Aniast said 3 months ago
I subscribed, but I get plenty of skepticism from PZ Meyers and Greg Laden (to name a couple) on ScienceBlogs. I’ll give it a listen though, maybe it will be better than PZ’s anti-religious dog and pony show.
deepee said 3 months ago
Please don’t tell me how long I have to explain myself.
Obviously, It does have consequences. When did I ever mention the belief system? I mentioned the word.
Randomentity said 3 months ago
I know what the word means. I’m still trying to figure out your point.
at this juncture Xenu is pissed
deepee said 3 months ago
If you don’t know by now, don’t worry.
Matt Rupp said 3 months ago
Aliens.
You’ll learn soon enough.
ryandouglass said 3 months ago
man, i totally thought this was a joke.
RikkiB said 3 months ago
Hehe, yes, they’re a little lower brow, but I enjoy the characters and their banter ;)