Got into a conversation about this with some guys on the web today (he got all upset and started name calling so had to drop it hahah) and was wondering if anyone can justify it to me. my personal opinion is that its wrong and is stealing, but I will change my mind if someone can make a good point- so that I go out and never have to buy an album again. I just cant imagine walking up to Ian MacKaye (Fugazi) and telling him I downloaded his records coz of one of the many arguments that I have heard so far, and him going 'no, no, that's totally fine- that is the best argument I have heard and I totally agree that you should never have to pay for my music ever again'. hahah what do you girls think? 2009-10-31T00:55:30-04:00 188 2009-09-26T09:21:43-04:00 true 0 81641 false false 11245 2802 1 2009-11-21T17:39:36-05:00 2686 When I found out people were ripping my band's music off MySpace, I actually got pretty stoked, because I was like "damn, people like it enough to fucking steal it!" However, eventually, we put it up for free download anyway. I don't really have a great say because my band doesn't physically profit from selling our music yet. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T09:24:03-04:00 2628941 3515 2009-09-26T09:24:03-04:00 <blockquote>my personal opinion is that its wrong and is stealing</blockquote> 81641 Post 2009-09-26T09:32:32-04:00 2628971 46601 2009-09-26T09:32:32-04:00 (laughable) arguments I have heard so far: 'if you build a house and i build a similar house- its not stealing dude.' 'if i told you a joke- i wouldn't expect you to pay every time you told that joke'. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T09:35:55-04:00 2629001 2802 2009-09-26T09:35:55-04:00 the only (plausible) excuse is that of price...and keep in mind, what i'm telling you is valid here, in Romania. example: I want to play a video game. I do want it a lot. i go to the store, and it's about 50 euro to get it. Fine, i love the game, i'm going to buy it. Oh wait, my whole damn paycheck as a teacher is around 200euro/month. so..i'm like..i can get 4 games per month with my money? what about food? what about all the other things in life. WHEN the game gets platinum and it sells for around 20$, then i snatch it, if i really liked it and i want to support the ones making it. example 2: games in the usa cost 50$, paychecks go around 2000$/month or so i've heard. game costs in Romania 250 lei and an average paycheck is about 1000 lei. now...imagine i will go for file sharing, given these circumstances. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T09:41:21-04:00 2629011 3643 2009-09-26T09:42:32-04:00 <img src="http://www.evilmilk.com/pictures/Guide_To_Piracy.jpg" /> <img src="http://www.evilmilk.com/pictures/Piracy_Is_Green.jpg" /> also, Pirates have terrible grammar. (environmentally*) *<i>the above statements are not necessarily the views of <a href="http://emptees.com/people/1498-litoq">LitoQ</a>. They just made him giggle a bit.</i> 81641 Post 2009-09-26T09:43:05-04:00 2629031 1498 2009-09-26T09:43:05-04:00 <blockquote><cite>eZ-kun said:</cite> the only (plausible) excuse is that of price...and keep in mind, what i'm telling you is valid here, in Romania. example: I want to play a video game. I do want it a lot. i go to the store, and it's about 50 euro to get it. Fine, i love the game, i'm going to buy it. Oh wait, my whole damn paycheck as a teacher is around 200euro/month. so..i'm like..i can get 4 games per month with my money? what about food? what about all the other things in life. WHEN the game gets platinum and it sells for around 20$, then i snatch it, if i really liked it and i want to support the ones making it. example 2: games in the usa cost 50$, paychecks go around 2000$/month or so i've heard. game costs in Romania 250 lei and an average paycheck is about 1000 lei. now...imagine i will go for file sharing, given these circumstances.</blockquote> are you saying that if you cant afford something, it is ok to steal it? 81641 Post 2009-09-26T09:48:40-04:00 2629091 2802 2009-09-26T09:48:40-04:00 this is such a touchy question there are a lot of factors to consider. if you have the time i'd like to elaborate: i've been working with bands for a long ass time. mostly local bands, but some big named people. From what we've talked about its pretty much the same as volatile's thing. i remember watching this thing on Greatful Dead, they actually loved that people were downloading their music. They even had these audio jacks that fans could jack into and record their show. they figured the fans were paying 50 to 80 bucks a ticket, might as well give them some shit to take home. its a mix bag. its not stealing if the original file isnt taken... its copying. if you could copy your friend's mustang cobra and get an exact replica that works just the same, would you? we clone sheep, and cows to get more food for us right? its something the government agencies can control and tax. downloading music isn't something they can tax, unless your subscribing to something and paying per song. its the same for people who smoke weed. its illegal yet they do it because there really are no harmful outcomes, its something the government cant tax properly because people can grow it themselves. thats why we're all trying to get it legal... i personally dont smoke weed, but respect my friends who do. if that happens it'll be harder to obtain due to the price. it really depends on which side of the law you reside, and how you look at it, and where your heart is at. if your doing it to get free shit, well then greed can get you in some trouble spiritually, if your intentions are to hear a new band and check them out before buying their cd... giving their songs to friends to spread some hype, then it can be justified. there is no right or wrong in this situation. which is why to this day its still such a big issue with the recording industry. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T09:48:46-04:00 2629101 10321 2009-09-26T09:48:46-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Godmachine said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>eZ-kun said:</cite> the only (plausible) excuse is that of price...and keep in mind, what i'm telling you is valid here, in Romania. example: I want to play a video game. I do want it a lot. i go to the store, and it's about 50 euro to get it. Fine, i love the game, i'm going to buy it. Oh wait, my whole damn paycheck as a teacher is around 200euro/month. so..i'm like..i can get 4 games per month with my money? what about food? what about all the other things in life. WHEN the game gets platinum and it sells for around 20$, then i snatch it, if i really liked it and i want to support the ones making it. example 2: games in the usa cost 50$, paychecks go around 2000$/month or so i've heard. game costs in Romania 250 lei and an average paycheck is about 1000 lei. now...imagine i will go for file sharing, given these circumstances.</blockquote> are you saying that if you cant afford something, it is ok to steal it?</blockquote> Yes, i know that was what i was saying, when you simplify. But given the fact that i don't want to be an hypocrite too, i admit my fault and i give you MY reasons. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T09:52:11-04:00 2629121 3643 2009-09-26T09:52:11-04:00 <blockquote><cite>LitoQ said:</cite> <img src="http://www.evilmilk.com/pictures/Guide_To_Piracy.jpg" /> <img src="http://www.evilmilk.com/pictures/Piracy_Is_Green.jpg" /> also, Pirates have terrible grammar. (environmentally*) *<i>the above statements are not necessarily the views of <a href="http://emptees.com/people/1498-litoq">LitoQ</a>. They just made him giggle a bit.</i></blockquote> The second cartoon makes a minimum of sense, the first one not, how about someone ordering one of your tees and later he sends it back wanting his money back because he just wanted to rip it off anyway, imagine the reactions here... I did it in the past, never felt too good with it, I don´t do it anymore... so basically I agree with godmachine. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T10:00:05-04:00 2629141 519 2009-09-26T10:00:05-04:00 I hear ya. I just thought those were <b>a</b>.) slightly comical and <b>b</b>.) better than the arguments presented previously. Not necessarily my stance in this debate, hence my disclaimer ;) I totally get it. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T10:03:07-04:00 2629171 1498 2009-09-26T10:03:48-04:00 <blockquote><cite>LitoQ said:</cite> I hear ya. I just thought those were <b>a</b>.) slightly comical and <b>b</b>.) better than the arguments presented previously. Not necessarily my stance in this debate, hence my disclaimer ;) I totally get it.</blockquote> ok! ... and they are slightly comical indeed:) 81641 Post 2009-09-26T10:09:25-04:00 2629231 519 2009-09-26T10:10:29-04:00 I personally cant afford to get all the albums i want to if i go out to the shops and buy them. Instead, I've got napster (which is perfectly legal) which allows you to download as much music as you want, however it's drm protected. Another program called tunebite (also 100% legal) removes the drm. It costs me £10 a month to subscribe to napster and tunbeite is like $20 one off cost. This works out far cheaper than tunebite or buying them out of shops. I really think this is the perfect alternative to downloading illegally. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T10:10:20-04:00 2629241 3911 2009-09-26T10:11:31-04:00 I´m way too busy downloading the legal (and fantastic) stuff from <a href="http://www.daytrotter.com/">daytrotter sessions</a> to do piracy anymore:) 81641 Post 2009-09-26T10:14:00-04:00 2629281 519 2009-09-26T10:14:00-04:00 i don't download music really. i stream it, record it, enhance it some and put that shit on casset tapes. hell yeah son! mix tapes is where it's at. anyone watch the movie "Be kind, Rewind" 81641 Post 2009-09-26T10:23:07-04:00 2629411 10321 2009-09-26T10:23:07-04:00 You don't even need to download a copy anymore, I don't need a copy on my computer. Just find somewhere like moof, playlist, slacker and so on where the music stays on the internet and I can listen to it there when I want to. What is the record company to do then only distribute physical copies to brick and mortar stores, That's just retarded. Same thing is starting to happen with google and books. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T10:25:26-04:00 2629421 506 2009-09-26T10:25:26-04:00 I am not into downloading dodgy music,films,games etc,i would much rather buy the original,if i cannot afford it..i don't have it. Simples. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T10:28:46-04:00 2629451 12032 2009-09-26T10:28:46-04:00 <blockquote><cite>LitoQ said:</cite> <img src="http://www.evilmilk.com/pictures/Guide_To_Piracy.jpg" /> <img src="http://www.evilmilk.com/pictures/Piracy_Is_Green.jpg" /> also, Pirates have terrible grammar. (environmentally*) *<i>the above statements are not necessarily the views of <a href="http://emptees.com/people/1498-litoq">LitoQ</a>. They just made him giggle a bit.</i></blockquote> You obviously have a different version of the internet because you always post the best shit. Where can I download that version for free? 81641 Post 2009-09-26T10:29:09-04:00 2629461 2879 2009-09-26T10:29:09-04:00 I like having the artwork. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T10:30:08-04:00 2629481 2802 2009-09-26T10:30:08-04:00 as a music collector myself I went from being against it, to being on the fence about it to gradually accepting it. part of the argument for it (for me personally) was price, accessibility and quality. I think there's a longstanding argument among music fans about the incredibly high markup of music, especially with major labels. the only labels that seem to get it are the indies imo. accessibility of music was also a frustration I encountered. I don't know anything about the laws governing territories and why artists only release certain product in certain areas but it seems like another way to get fans to pony up high costs for an import. I do understand that countries like Japan will have a higher cost of living, etc., which might justify a $30-40 price tag on a cd but not many people are willing to spend that on a disc. finally, quality has been the biggest complaint for me. I have 3000+ albums in my collection, 1/3 of which I wish I had never purchased. it usually came from reading some fluffed up review by some douche with a torso and limbs who thought a particular artist was the next best thing. it came down to me buying a lot of stuff based on someone's opinion and not liking what I heard. this pissed me off more than anything - knowing I paid $15-$20 for an album and discovering there were only 2 good songs on the entire album. it may be a poor analogy but it's like being approached by a car salesman to buy the latest new electric car without letting you give it a test drive. I then started 'previewing' albums before committing myself to purchasing them. I can tell you there are artists whose music I don't have to listen to to know i'll buy their music, but for new artists i've never heard of i'm definitely gonna want to sample their music so I don't wind up with another plastic coaster for my coffee table. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T10:30:27-04:00 2629491 12224 2009-09-26T10:30:27-04:00 lastfm! 81641 Post 2009-09-26T10:32:30-04:00 2629511 1486 2009-09-26T10:32:30-04:00 <blockquote><cite>quakerninja said:</cite> You don't even need to download a copy anymore, I don't need a copy on my computer. Just find somewhere like moof, playlist, slacker and so on where the music stays on the internet and I can listen to it there when I want to. What is the record company to do then only distribute physical copies to brick and mortar stores, That's just retarded. Same thing is starting to happen with google and books.</blockquote> I really hope that won´t happen that soon, a book is something different, a "warm" physical thing to touch and to take to the beach or whatever... when it comes to CDs I agree a bit to the second cartoon above... 81641 Post 2009-09-26T10:32:39-04:00 2629531 519 2009-09-26T10:32:39-04:00 Less piracy in music = more money for bands = less need for band merch to gain profit = less jobs for us shirt designers. Hahaha. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T10:33:08-04:00 2629541 24821 2009-09-26T10:33:08-04:00 the industry is taking BIG steps in trying to eliminate even VIDEO GAME CONSOLES. check out On Live. they are going to just do it over the web. the system is running somewhere in this big facility, and they are going to, for a low fee charge people to play games. its just slowly moving to the point where downloading isnt a problem anymore. hell even porn is free these days. with sites like youporn, and things like that. its up for grabs. whats the difference in clicking "add to playlist" and "download to ipod" we're still hearing the music, and falling in love with the bands. the funny thing about the RIAA is: they state that you MUST delete a file within 24 hours of downloading it. so your allowed to download it, just not keep it? fight the power! 81641 Post 2009-09-26T10:36:22-04:00 2629591 10321 2009-09-26T10:36:22-04:00 <blockquote><cite>uzi said:</cite> Less piracy in music = more money for bands = less need for band merch to gain profit = less jobs for us shirt designers. Hahaha.</blockquote> Less CD layouts though. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T10:36:41-04:00 2629601 2879 2009-09-26T10:36:41-04:00 <blockquote><cite>gaunty said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>uzi said:</cite> Less piracy in music = more money for bands = less need for band merch to gain profit = less jobs for us shirt designers. Hahaha.</blockquote> Less CD layouts though.</blockquote> vinyl sales are up 81641 Post 2009-09-26T10:40:50-04:00 2629651 1146 2009-09-26T10:40:50-04:00 <blockquote><cite>derekdeal said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>gaunty said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>uzi said:</cite> Less piracy in music = more money for bands = less need for band merch to gain profit = less jobs for us shirt designers. Hahaha.</blockquote> I haven´t bought one in years, would you still get to design a pull out or just the sleeve? Less CD layouts though.</blockquote> vinyl sales are up</blockquote> 81641 Post 2009-09-26T10:42:13-04:00 2629661 2879 2009-09-26T10:42:13-04:00 I also have a friend that has his own music blog where he posts mp3's by new bands or just stuff he listens to. he often gets promos sent to him but is occasionally asked not to post songs from the promo - this makes absolutely no sense to me. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T10:43:26-04:00 2629671 12224 2009-09-26T10:43:26-04:00 <blockquote><cite>uzi said:</cite> Less piracy in music = more money for bands = less need for band merch to gain profit = less jobs for us shirt designers. Hahaha.</blockquote> less piracy in music = more money for the record label 81641 Post 2009-09-26T10:50:11-04:00 2629781 1661 2009-09-26T10:50:11-04:00 <blockquote><cite>justgeoff said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>uzi said:</cite> Less piracy in music = more money for bands = less need for band merch to gain profit = less jobs for us shirt designers. Hahaha.</blockquote> less piracy in music = more money for the record label</blockquote> Good point. Agreed. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T10:53:25-04:00 2629811 24821 2009-09-26T10:53:25-04:00 <a href="http://www.zeropaid.com/news/9020/trent_reznor_tells_australian_crowd_to_steal_my_music/">Trent Reznor speaks.</a> This is a pretty good article regarding the topic. "I mentioned previously how NIN frontman Trent Reznor was both shocked and angered to discover on a visit to an Australian CD retailer that his latest release, “Year Zero,” was retailing for almost $30 USD. Calling the price “absurd,” he was even more shocked after hearing from a studio rep why it is that his CD was retailing for such an enormous amount. “It’s because we know you have a real core audience that will pay whatever it costs when you put something out – you know, true fans,” he said according to Reznor.”It’s the pop stuff we have to discount to get people to buy.” He couldn’t believe that they were basically ripping off his true fans, the guys and gals who actually cared enough about the band to support them. “No wonder people steal music,” he said. Well, on a recent trip back to Australia after his much publicized comments, he asked the audience during one of his performances if things had changed, if the price of his latest CD had come down at all as he had requested. The answer was a resounding “No,” to which he then replied that they should then go ahead and steal it (i.e. illegally download it). “Steal it,” he said. “Steal away. Steal and steal and steal some more and give it to all your friends and keep on stealin’. Because one way or another, these motherf—ers will get it through their head that they’re ripping people off and that’s not right." 81641 Post 2009-09-26T10:53:42-04:00 2629821 12731 2009-09-26T10:53:42-04:00 i had a level 100 charizard. my friend raised it, played the game nonstop, and traded it over and we cloned it. we now have 2 level 100 charizards. we both rock. because by the end of the night we had 5 copies of good pokemon that we took with us to the pokemon league and cloned with our friends so they can have better shit. one of us did all the work, and we both cloned it, and traded it off to our friends, so we could all have strong pokemon to finish the game with. it takes the fun out of it, sure, but the way i saw it, i was sharing something badass without loosing MY copy of it. why spend 5 days playing pokemon doing that pointless battle when i had friends who were psycho about that shit? now imagine this concept with a new camaro. you can have 5 or 6 of them, i'd give them to my friends and we'd share. they loose their value of course but some things shouldnt have a price tag. the PREFORMANCE should! i pay to see bands preform! i check out their music before i go see them. its a robin hood style of looking at it i guess. what merits right and wrong? 81641 Post 2009-09-26T10:54:27-04:00 2629841 10321 2009-09-26T10:57:47-04:00 I download music...no cares. Sorry, I'm not going to go drop $10 on the new Paramore or something like that. I'll download it, at least. Now for the bands I legit enjoy, I'll go see them when they tour, and I do, often, and I'll probably pick up the vinyl or a t-shirt. Rather give $10 directly to the band and help them get to their next stop than buy a CD from a store or online. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T10:57:54-04:00 2629871 8231 2009-09-26T10:57:54-04:00 Here's a scenario.You have just illegally downloaded shit loads of stuff,you then upload a great tee design and offer the artwork for sale...but no one buys it.A few weeks later you start to see it everywhere every fucker is wearing your art and you did get one single penny. What's the difference? 81641 Post 2009-09-26T10:59:22-04:00 2629901 12032 2009-09-26T10:59:22-04:00 Does any of the money from album sales ever get to the artist anyway? Is buying music just paying for a round of golf for some top douche. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T11:02:00-04:00 2629931 506 2009-09-26T11:02:00-04:00 ---insert bad analogy here--- 81641 Post 2009-09-26T11:03:44-04:00 2629981 1661 2009-09-26T11:03:57-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Deformed Giraffe said:</cite> Here's a scenario.You have just illegally downloaded shit loads of stuff,you then upload a great tee design and offer the artwork for sale...but no one buys it.A few weeks later you start to see it everywhere every fucker is wearing your art and you did get one single penny. What's the difference?</blockquote> the difference is... we dont put on preformacnes. we dont charge 30 bucks a ticket for someone to come see us draw. <blockquote><cite>quakerninja said:</cite> Does any of the money from album sales ever get to the artist anyway? Is buying music just paying for a round of golf for some top douche.</blockquote> i think michael jackson started buying rights to other musicians so he'd make actual money. the money he got from his records are because the record labels screwed him over with like 20 cents per cd sold... which is GOOD compared to some musicians. the industry is fucked. i'm gonna go watch all my downloaded episodes of aaah real monsters and "Delete them within 24 hours" like the good ol law tells us to do. fuck that nonsense. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T11:04:35-04:00 2629991 10321 2009-09-26T11:06:43-04:00 I agree its stealing, unless, your doing it to preview before you buy. or to introduce others to it so they can go pick it up. Or your just backing up what you already got. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T11:09:07-04:00 2630021 70551 2009-09-26T11:09:51-04:00 <blockquote><cite>quakerninja said:</cite> Does any of the money from album sales ever get to the artist anyway? Is buying music just paying for a round of golf for some top douche.</blockquote> Artists do get some money from sales, usually pennies per unit. even huge multi-platinum artists don't get too much money from album sales...until it's time to renegotiate a contract. Problem is, a lot of bands never get to that point. At any rate, artists make their money from concerts and merch. The suits and producers make money from the album. You're basically stealing from the record company when you illegally download music. doesn't make it right, but that's what's happening. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T11:10:18-04:00 2630051 1661 2009-09-26T11:10:18-04:00 I download music, I admit, but I also go to shows, buy official merch etc. I have a shitload of bandmerch in my closet. Also, I don't download music of bands who own their own record label, like Enter Shikari (who always have awesome deals in their store, cd+shirt pack etc). I don't support the way big record labels work, they take a lot of money from the bands, and I don't feel like supporting record labels, I'd rather support the band by buying merch. I wrote a piece on record labels for Spanish class, last year. Some bands make more money because of the sales of their merch than of the sale of their CD's. That's just my opinion and how I justify myself for downloading stuff, I might be wrong on some points, but I don't really care, I think I'm doing good in my own way. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T11:12:56-04:00 2630081 25661 2009-09-26T11:12:56-04:00 <blockquote><cite>justgeoff said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>quakerninja said:</cite> Does any of the money from album sales ever get to the artist anyway? Is buying music just paying for a round of golf for some top douche.</blockquote> Artists do get some money from sales, usually pennies per unit. even huge multi-platinum artists don't get too much money from album sales...until it's time to renegotiate a contract. Problem is, a lot of bands never get to that point. At any rate, artists make their money from concerts and merch. The suits and producers make money from the album. You're basically stealing from the record company when you illegally download music. doesn't make it right, but that's what's happening.</blockquote> which is why we have people like the RIAA making mixed matched laws that have so many loopholes that its retarded. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T11:12:58-04:00 2630091 10321 2009-09-26T11:12:58-04:00 Here's a great essay by Steve Albini. He breaks it down for ya regarding who makes money from album sales. http://negativland.com/albini.html 81641 Post 2009-09-26T11:13:52-04:00 2630101 1661 2009-09-26T11:13:52-04:00 You are no different to a recording artist!your art is your performance and your fee is the 30 bucks gig ticket. So if i steal your design and give it away that's OK is it? 81641 Post 2009-09-26T11:17:04-04:00 2630131 12032 2009-09-26T11:18:59-04:00 Question: is "illegal downloading" bad? the answer: yes its bad. why? because it hurts the record label who is moreso screwing over the bands. some bands think that you are screwing them over, some think its your right as an american. but one thing i DID hate about buying cds back in the day... once you bought them, and listened to them. if you hated it, the stores didnt let you get your money back. honest people got screwed over, and it was for THAT REASON why i stopped buying cds. plastic wastes of space. and if the damn thing gets scratched? and i forgot to back it up? well godsh darnit i'm redownloading that shit from pirate bay. love. godmachine, i hope you can at least find some form of understanding on this subject. there really is no right or wrong, its all perception. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T11:26:11-04:00 2630211 10321 2009-09-26T11:27:11-04:00 <blockquote><cite>justgeoff said:</cite> Here's a great essay by Steve Albini. He breaks it down for ya regarding who makes money from album sales. http://negativland.com/albini.html</blockquote> that is a great essay, id just like to highlight one part that i thought was particularly beneficial to the community <img src="http://www.grabup.com/uploads/84a1e3723058924b0cd92a7e1eb5fe69.png" /> 81641 Post 2009-09-26T11:31:02-04:00 2630271 1146 2009-09-26T11:32:24-04:00 whoa. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T11:32:51-04:00 2630301 1498 2009-09-26T11:32:51-04:00 <blockquote><cite>derekdeal said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>justgeoff said:</cite> Here's a great essay by Steve Albini. He breaks it down for ya regarding who makes money from album sales. http://negativland.com/albini.html</blockquote> that is a great essay, id just like to highlight one part that i thought was particularly beneficial to the community <img src="http://www.grabup.com/uploads/84a1e3723058924b0cd92a7e1eb5fe69.png" /></blockquote> $120 surely? 81641 Post 2009-09-26T11:34:44-04:00 2630321 2802 2009-09-26T11:34:44-04:00 <blockquote><cite>justgeoff said:</cite> ---insert bad analogy here---</blockquote> Okay I will go home now. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T11:34:53-04:00 2630331 24821 2009-09-26T11:34:53-04:00 <blockquote><cite>I AM SCUMBAG said:</cite> but one thing i DID hate about buying cds back in the day... once you bought them, and listened to them. if you hated it, the stores didnt let you get your money back. honest people got screwed over, and it was for THAT REASON why i stopped buying cds. </blockquote> agreed. there was never accountability with quality control. consumers are pretty much left out in the cold if they didn't like an album. record stores won't let you return albums, unless there was some defect and even then you're not guaranteed to get your money back. at best you'd be able to get an exchange. this was another reason I scaled my purchases back, because if I didn't like something I couldn't return it for a refund. a lot of artists are getting screwed but so are consumers 81641 Post 2009-09-26T11:42:32-04:00 2630391 12224 2009-09-26T11:42:32-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Godmachine said:</cite> I am not adverse to someone sending me a file or two to listen to. I just dont try and justify it to myself that its anything other than theft. But I do buy a lot of my albums.</blockquote> That's how I do it. If I'm thinking about getting an album, I'll grab a couple full songs off the internet, then if I like it, get the whole album. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T11:52:02-04:00 2630531 9035 2009-09-26T11:52:02-04:00 While I admit to downloading just about everything a decade ago (in the midst of the Napster buzz) I no longer participate in illegal file sharing. Just because you can get it for free, doesn't mean you should...just my $0.02. For music, Pandora is great. $13/month gives you access to tons of music...full album, new releases, obscure stuff, etc. It's a small price to pay to listen to endless amounts of tunes. Saves me tons of money on CDs...now I only buy the ones I know I like. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T11:53:39-04:00 2630551 1826 2009-09-26T11:53:39-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Godmachine said:</cite> I like having the artwork.</blockquote> Same here. <blockquote>There really is no right or wrong, its all perception.</blockquote> Technically, piracy still is stealing. So therefore it's wrong, not much to argue about really. Also saw some people saying that not being able to afford a cd/game/software due to their salary/income, find it's "plausible" to download illegally. Man i want that BMW X5 but i can't afford it. Let's go jack one, cause it's plausible for me to steal it cause i'm poor. And if i tell the cops that, i know they will let me go cause they'll feel bad for me... It's illegal. Not much to argue here. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T11:55:11-04:00 2630571 46601 2009-09-26T11:55:11-04:00 <blockquote><cite>rawkidrocks said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>Godmachine said:</cite> I like having the artwork.</blockquote> Same here. <blockquote>There really is no right or wrong, its all perception.</blockquote> Technically, piracy still is stealing. So therefore it's wrong, not much to argue about really. Also saw some people saying that not being able to afford a cd/game/software due to their salary/income, find it's "plausible" to download illegally. Man i want that BMW X5 but i can't afford it. Let's go jack one, cause it's plausible for me to steal it cause i'm poor. And if i tell the cops that, i know they will let me go cause they'll feel bad for me... It's illegal. Not much to argue here.</blockquote> I agree that the "i'm poor and have no money" excuse is a bad one. but as a picky consumer who does buy music I don't think it's necessarily out of bounds to sample an album before you commit to buying it. i've come across way too many labels trying to pass their latest artist off as the 'new DJ Shadow', only to sound like some shitty amateur clone. it's false advertising imo. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T11:59:17-04:00 2630591 12224 2009-09-26T11:59:17-04:00 <blockquote>I agree that the "i'm poor and have no money" excuse is a bad one. but as a picky consumer who does buy music I don't think it's necessarily out of bounds to sample an album before you commit to buying it. i've come across way too many labels trying to pass their latest artist off as the 'new DJ Shadow', only to sound like some shitty amateur clone. it's false advertising imo.</blockquote> Don't know about where most of u guys are from, but most audiostores that i visit have a "listening-section" where you can listen to the whole cd before buying it. And not to mention all the online possibilities to prelisten a cd. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T12:10:08-04:00 2630641 46601 2009-09-26T12:10:08-04:00 playlist.com and pandora.com streaming free music... im sure bands get royalties though.. thats what i usually do... 81641 Post 2009-09-26T12:20:54-04:00 2630711 2870 2009-09-26T12:20:54-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Killer Napkins said:</cite> playlist.com and pandora.com streaming free music... im sure bands get royalties though.. thats what i usually do...</blockquote> Also 'Spotify' for the UK peeps. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T12:32:24-04:00 2630761 7093 2009-09-26T12:32:24-04:00 <blockquote>There really is no right or wrong, its all perception. Technically, piracy still is stealing. So therefore it's wrong, not much to argue about really. Also saw some people saying that not being able to afford a cd/game/software due to their salary/income, find it's "plausible" to download illegally. Man i want that BMW X5 but i can't afford it. Let's go jack one, cause it's plausible for me to steal it cause i'm poor. And if i tell the cops that, i know they will let me go cause they'll feel bad for me... It's illegal. Not much to argue here.</blockquote> Technically, piracy still is wrong. But it isn't stealing... Theft: 1 a : the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it. want that BMW X5 but can't afford it. Let's go jack one, except lets leave the original for the owner, and just duplicate it using our cloning machine. What if I had a memory so good that I could hear a song, a reproduce it from scratch at home, to make my own copy?..it that wrong? If someone rips your t-shirt design from scratch but only for strictly their one personal wardrobe, and does not sell it....is that wrong? 81641 Post 2009-09-26T12:41:20-04:00 2630831 4344 2009-09-26T12:44:53-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Deformed Giraffe said:</cite> Here's a scenario.You have just illegally downloaded shit loads of stuff,you then upload a great tee design and offer the artwork for sale...but no one buys it.A few weeks later you start to see it everywhere every fucker is wearing your art and you did get one single penny. What's the difference?</blockquote> I think the difference is that someone is selling your design...but what if each person downloaded and printed it?...is it any different? or would you be exited at the new opportunity to sell your designs in a new outlet?....downloadable t-shirts, that can be printed at home?..sure you'd have pirates, but you'd also have new global customers. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T12:53:23-04:00 2630931 4344 2009-09-26T12:53:23-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Godmachine said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>derekdeal said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>justgeoff said:</cite> Here's a great essay by Steve Albini. He breaks it down for ya regarding who makes money from album sales. http://negativland.com/albini.html</blockquote> that is a great essay, id just like to highlight one part that i thought was particularly beneficial to the community <img src="http://www.grabup.com/uploads/84a1e3723058924b0cd92a7e1eb5fe69.png" /></blockquote> $120 surely?</blockquote> dont call me surely 81641 Post 2009-09-26T13:03:59-04:00 2631071 1146 2009-09-26T13:03:59-04:00 Personally I do download music and burn cds from other people. I use to do it all the time and for a while I never had any actual cds. If its someone I really like I will buy their album and if they come out with a new one there is a better chance I'll buy it. I've gotten to the point where I've been buying more cds and giving some bands a chance. I think the main thing I hate is when I buy a cd and it sucks. I'd rather listen around and see if its really worth my money. Although if I do see an opening act at a concert and they catch my attention I will go ahead and by their album while Im there. Same with t shirts, I don't buy a band t shirt unless its at one of their concerts, or Im a huge fan and I see a really cool one.. Yeah, its illegal, but I don't really think its a huge hit on the band itself. Especially if you support them in other ways. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T13:20:20-04:00 2631261 26981 2009-09-26T13:20:20-04:00 godmachine: if you are actually interested in ian mckaye's stance on the issue watch this episode of soft focus. ian svenonius interviews him about all manor of things but towards the end they address it. http://www.vbs.tv/watch/soft-focus/ian-mackaye 81641 Post 2009-09-26T13:26:24-04:00 2631361 1106 2009-09-26T13:26:47-04:00 <blockquote> Technically, piracy still is wrong. But it isn't stealing... Theft: 1 a : the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it. want that BMW X5 but can't afford it. Let's go jack one, except lets leave the original for the owner, and just duplicate it using our cloning machine. What if I had a memory so good that I could hear a song, a reproduce it from scratch at home, to make my own copy?..it that wrong? If someone rips your t-shirt design from scratch but only for strictly their one personal wardrobe, and does not sell it....is that wrong?</blockquote> I know i might not have given the ideal comparison and i should have made clear that you have to see it through the manufacturers eye. When somebody buys a BMW X5, he/she not only buys the material, he/she buys the technique, design behind it. Yeah, what if there was a cloning machine that could make me a copy of this ride that i want so bad. It would be disrespectful, and that's an understatement, towards the designers and engineers behind this BMW X5 for me to just be able to copy the car without spending one single dollar/euro. Again, you have to see it through the manufacturers eye and spending those many dollars/euros to this car, simply reflect the many hours of designing, engineering and whatever that has been put into the machine. Everything has it's price and it's a basic priciple that's been around for ages: capitalism. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T13:26:54-04:00 2631371 46601 2009-09-26T13:26:54-04:00 I do it cause otherwise I wouldn't even know about 90% of the bands I listen to, they're not on Mtv, they're not on my local radio, no one here listens to most of them. What I do is I download the album, listen to it, and a)if I like it I buy it (I like the artwork too!) or b) if I don't like it I just delete the files. Aside from the money issue of being able to afford all the albums I want, I had more troubles just finding them. I can't buy them where I live, my mail sucks so ordering them online is always a gamble (and I can't find a whole lot of them anyway) and I go to the states about 3-4 times a year and always buy a bunch of cds but my choices are still very limited. Just about a month ago I finally got my hands on a Katatonia cd I was after for about 4 years. If I had never downloaded it I would have deprived myself of it's awesomeness for 4 years and wouldn't have eventually bought a copy. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T13:31:02-04:00 2631381 9179 2009-09-26T13:31:02-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Deformed Giraffe said:</cite> Here's a scenario.You have just illegally downloaded shit loads of stuff,you then upload a great tee design and offer the artwork for sale...but no one buys it.A few weeks later you start to see it everywhere every fucker is wearing your art and you did get one single penny. What's the difference?</blockquote> here's one for you. how do you feel about designers who appropriate images from let's say, movie posters or pop culture references to use in a design? there are plenty of people on this site who have done this, but I don't see anyone pointing fingers and accusing them of theft (with the exception of Kyle and some of his EZ designs). a lot of the designs from crispytees.com could be considered theft. is Glen Danzig getting money from the Misfits skull design? Is Stan Lee getting royalties for the Go Green Hulk t-shirt? Is Danny Glover getting anything for them using his likeness to sell a shirt? That would be, no. would you then consider these guys thieves? I'm not trying to single crispytees.com out, just trying to illustrate a point when people make weak arguments about what constitutes theft. another example would be hip hop music. how do you feel about producers who sample another artist but don't pay for the right to use that sample? these are the same artists who bitch and moan about illegal downloading but have not paid royalties to the artists they themselves sampled. it's a paradox. it's the same in design. whether you're using someone's likeness or making reference to a pop culture icon in a design aren't you still stealing something for personal gain? again, i'm not trying to shit on anyone here, rather just trying to show that it's a slippery slope. FYI, I personally don't care if EZ or crispytees.com uses pop culture imagery in their designs. if people like it then more power to them 81641 Post 2009-09-26T13:50:09-04:00 2631471 12224 2009-09-26T13:50:09-04:00 Personally I don't think Ian MacKaye is even relevant to most people who rip music. He's a wonderful musician who's made his career by being honest and making sure everyone can see one of his shows and access his music. The people that are complaining about being "pirated" and the big wigs that aren't seeing the previously insane profits that destroyed the music industry to begin with. The up and comers are more concerned with being heard. If you're into a band, there are lots of other ways you can support them asides from music. You can't really pirate a shirt...well, I suppose you can, but at least not digitally. Another thing for me is the format. CDs and digital downloads are pretty much garbage in my opinion. If you're going to sell me music, it's probably going to have to be vinyl at this point. What a lot of musicians are doing is combining vinyl with CDs or digital download or both to assure listening across multiple formats for the ease of the user. That's personally my favorite way to buy music anymore. Such as my last music purchase: the remastered Rites of Spring discography with free download. AWESOME. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T13:54:01-04:00 2631561 12325 2009-09-26T13:55:13-04:00 I pirate a lot of music to be honest. I also drop tons of money buying merch, vinyl, cds, paying for shows etc. I don't get paid for people to see my work, why should I have to pay to hear something to decide if I like it? It's beneficial to the actual musicians, most bands make somewhere like 3% off each cd as it is, the head honchos are the ones hurting. There are a ton of bands that would be nowhere except in their hometown if it wasn't for it, and I surely wouldn't be buying their stuff. Otherwise record labels wouldn't leak their own music on purpose. And as Aetoric said, cds are worth absolutely nothing, it's the contents. RoboticEmpire and Hydrahead have no problem giving me Vinyl, Digital Download link, AND a cd version of the album- Packaging is actually awesome looking, you can tell there's care put into the craft of every aspect. And it's cheaper than any cd I'd walk into FYE and buy. I think strictly pirating is wrong but there's a fine line I guess. I understand the other side of it. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T14:01:04-04:00 2631661 5431 2009-09-26T14:09:32-04:00 <blockquote><cite>AetoricDesign said:</cite> Another thing for me is the format. CDs and digital downloads are pretty much garbage in my opinion. If you're going to sell me music, it's probably going to have to be vinyl at this point. What a lot of musicians are doing is combining vinyl with CDs or digital download or both to assure listening across multiple formats for the ease of the user. That's personally my favorite way to buy music anymore. Such as my last music purchase: the remastered Rites of Spring discography with free download. AWESOME.</blockquote> i'm starting to see more indie labels do this. stones throw offered one of their latest releases as a free download for 1 week. the tru thoughts label in the UK has started bundling cd/vinyl releases at a reduced cost and there are plenty that are giving you mp3 downloads with your vinyl purchase. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T14:04:09-04:00 2631671 12224 2009-09-26T14:04:09-04:00 I say rip away. Technology is always evolving and getting more advanced, and that's not our fault. Getting free music is like finding a 20$ bill in a parkinglot. Are you going to walk back inside the store you came out of and give it to the manager and say, " i found this outside". No one seems to care that machines have replaced peoples jobs on the line in auto factories, They just except it that that's the way it is. Or the cashier at your grocery store is replaced by a automated check out system. It sucks that the hard work these musicians are putting into there music is not getting rewarded like they should, but that's just the way it is. Shit is only going to get more advanced. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T14:04:14-04:00 2631681 62451 2009-09-26T14:04:14-04:00 i dont feel like i should have to pay for the music itself. if it has really nice artwork, or some limited edition packaging, or is some special vinyl press, just something physical i want to hold onto, and enjoy then ill buy it. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T14:10:02-04:00 2631721 8975 2009-09-26T14:10:02-04:00 i would be broke if i paid fr all of my music. there are a few certain programs that i feel terrible about downloading but i honestly would not be able to make artwork without them and there is no way i could afford them at that certain time. i also have no morals. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T14:48:50-04:00 2631971 9543 2009-09-26T14:48:50-04:00 <blockquote><cite>ChrisW said:</cite> i would be broke if i paid fr all of my music. there are a few certain programs that i feel terrible about downloading but i honestly would not be able to make artwork without them and there is no way i could afford them at that certain time. i also have no morals.</blockquote> I feel as if a lot of the programs that people would download around here become rather attached to them and will be actually purchasing them whenever they become more established. That's why digital art is so beautiful in my opinion. You can break into it with decent but not overwhelming amount of money and reap endlessly from it...until something fucks up. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T15:05:30-04:00 2632081 12325 2009-09-26T15:05:30-04:00 <blockquote><cite>ChrisW said:</cite>...i also have no morals.</blockquote> Now this is a plausible excuse :-P 81641 Post 2009-09-26T15:09:42-04:00 2632121 46601 2009-09-26T15:09:42-04:00 I buy tickets to shows that's enough for me and if I really like the band I'll pick up their CD at a show 'cause <blockquote><cite>Godmachine said:</cite> I like having the artwork.</blockquote> 81641 Post 2009-09-26T15:21:51-04:00 2632261 1404 2009-09-26T15:21:51-04:00 You should download albums because music is awesome. You should buy albums because that band that created that awesome music for you is now tens of thousands of dollars in debt to their label. And most bands can't pay their label back from merch sales - they can only recoup via album sales (whether it be physical copies or iTunes). 81641 Post 2009-09-26T15:28:07-04:00 2632301 9208 2009-09-26T15:28:07-04:00 I swap CD's with friends which I guess is the same, and sometimes download music. I love buying CD's and show tickets, and definetly love buying merch. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T15:33:19-04:00 2632391 9211 2009-09-26T15:33:19-04:00 regardless, the music industry is a business. people should buy albums. do i download? yeah. but i tend to buy the record if i dig it after and especially if they offer it on vinyl because thats something id like to keep supporting the production of. obviously record companies have huge overhead on recording costs, advertisement, videos and they need to make that money back. they cant rely on bands touring and such to recoup that. itunes has helped the industry a ton by offering people a chance to buy the music and not have the cd lying around. i own close to 2000 cds and honestly, i dont want any more of them and they sit in a box in my garage. id love to see a site that offers up music past copyright to be downloaded for either free or a nominal fee to help promote people discovering older styles of music. as for bands on smaller labels, i always buy their record because i look at it more as supporting a fellow small business. is it right to download from a major artist, no? but, i guess i concern myself more with the people struggling than the fact that, yes, i downloaded taylor swift, and yes, its a great record. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T15:46:18-04:00 2632461 1271 2009-09-26T15:46:18-04:00 I download everything, except I buy movies sometimes. Never buy CD's cause they're gonna be just lying around anyways, create more clutter. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T15:49:24-04:00 2632481 7920 2009-09-26T15:49:24-04:00 (having not read the comments yet) I think it's a case by case issue. If the bands don't mind having their music downloaded for free then I see no moral issue with it. One time a band even pointed me to a blog with a download to their album because it was the easiest way for them to get their music to me. Another time I had a pretty well known band send me another band's music via AIM. If it's ok for them to do, I imagine it's ok for us to do it. It would be like if bands downloaded our artwork to use as print outs or wallpapers without permission. They didn't pay us for the rights, but they still get to enjoy it. I don't have a problem with that as long as they aren't making money off of it. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T15:52:53-04:00 2632521 7761 2009-09-26T15:52:53-04:00 The way I see it is, you go to a shop and want to buy a banana, but they dont have any bananas left. So you go to your friend who sells drugs, and you get a whole bunch of bananas, and then you can eat as many as you like, and he takes the peel off for you so you don't have the banana skin laying around. You know? 81641 Post 2009-09-26T15:57:46-04:00 2632611 1307 2009-09-26T15:57:46-04:00 I reckon when people in indonesia steal our artwork and print it on shirts - it doesn't hurt us at all cuz they didn't STEAL anything, they just made copies of it. Maybe someone will buy the shirt for $3, realize that we are good artists, and buy our own shirt for $20! Yeah! That's what they'll do! You see, bootleggers are actually doing us a great service. I mean, without them how would anybody know if they liked our artwork or not? What? I don't give a crap if you download or not, but don't lie to yourself about it. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T15:58:09-04:00 2632631 997 2009-09-26T15:58:09-04:00 <blockquote><cite>heavyprints said:</cite> I reckon when people in indonesia steal our artwork and print it on shirts - it doesn't hurt us at all cuz they didn't STEAL anything, they just made copies of it. Maybe someone will buy the shirt for $3, realize that we are good artists, and buy our own shirt for $20! Yeah! That's what they'll do! You see, bootleggers are actually doing us a great service. I mean, without them how would anybody know if they liked our artwork or not? What? I don't give a crap if you download or not, but don't lie to yourself about it.</blockquote> touche. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T16:01:11-04:00 2632671 8975 2009-09-26T16:01:11-04:00 <blockquote><cite>heavyprints said:</cite> I reckon when people in indonesia steal our artwork and print it on shirts - it doesn't hurt us at all cuz they didn't STEAL anything, they just made copies of it. Maybe someone will buy the shirt for $3, realize that we are good artists, and buy our own shirt for $20! Yeah! That's what they'll do! You see, bootleggers are actually doing us a great service. I mean, without them how would anybody know if they liked our artwork or not? What? I don't give a crap if you download or not, but don't lie to yourself about it.</blockquote> But that implies that another party is making money off of our work. That would be the same as if someone downloaded music and then sold CD copies of the bootlegged album. I don't think anyone is doing that here. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T16:02:13-04:00 2632681 7761 2009-09-26T16:02:13-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Eternyl said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>Deformed Giraffe said:</cite> Here's a scenario.You have just illegally downloaded shit loads of stuff,you then upload a great tee design and offer the artwork for sale...but no one buys it.A few weeks later you start to see it everywhere every fucker is wearing your art and you did get one single penny. What's the difference?</blockquote> I think the difference is that someone is selling your design...but what if each person downloaded and printed it?...is it any different? or would you be exited at the new opportunity to sell your designs in a new outlet?....downloadable t-shirts, that can be printed at home?..sure you'd have pirates, but you'd also have new global customers.</blockquote> Shirt design is shirt design. people buy the shirts from the vendors, WE sell the design to the vendors. if someone is taking this design and making prints and trying to sell them well that my friends is ILLEGAL. but what if they were making prints and giving them out? it cant happen because it costs WAY too much to print. hell its like 15 bucks a screen these days. thats the difference. music goes on our mp3 players so we can go jogging and not have to have some shitty am fm radio. i swear to god if i hear that stupid 'if someone stole my friend's bike" shit one more time... grr. ITS NOT LIKE THAT AT ALL. its like CLONING YOUR OWN BEEF if anything. the government has control over it because they regulate the facilities doing it. they can put a price on it, they make money, the world is happy because food is cheaper. it'd be like YOU cloning your own beef, and giving some to the poor. your not stealing the cow, your copying it, and yes this does hurt the farms, but its cheaper and we feed more people. this is the direction they are going with music. the RIAA basically gave up. i mean you dont hear these stupid stories about kids and kazzaa downloading shit tons of music daily and facing fines. its just gotten to the point where the ISP's just threaten to shut off your internet if you seed. ironically you can leech all damn day, but if you seed, your fucked. and its just threats. we copy files all the time. i've installed halo CE on 5 computers once for a lan party all using the same CD key. if you place yourself in some "high and mighty" category cutting down everyone else who does something, then your really no better yourself. its illegal to copy tv shows on VHS cassette tapes. yet we still do it. here's a new question: if we can do things like DVR, and I tunes tagging with our hd radios, what is the ruling if we take those recorded movies or songs, and put them on a digital device? is this illegal? according to the RIAA it IS. we pay for sattellite tv, and radio services, but if we take that file from there you HAVE to delete said files within 24 hours.... to technically your allowed to keep it for a day? but it can stay on your dvr for forever? BULL SHIT. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T16:04:59-04:00 2632701 10321 2009-09-26T16:04:59-04:00 Actually, this pretty much sums up my feelings on the topic: <img src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Sb_V33EyX4U/STs1LRZVLvI/AAAAAAAABcs/XmbWvIoLSiQ/s320/cartman-1.jpg"> 81641 Post 2009-09-26T16:07:53-04:00 2632721 7761 2009-09-26T16:07:53-04:00 <blockquote><cite>valorandvellum said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>heavyprints said:</cite> I reckon when people in indonesia steal our artwork and print it on shirts - it doesn't hurt us at all cuz they didn't STEAL anything, they just made copies of it. Maybe someone will buy the shirt for $3, realize that we are good artists, and buy our own shirt for $20! Yeah! That's what they'll do! You see, bootleggers are actually doing us a great service. I mean, without them how would anybody know if they liked our artwork or not? What? I don't give a crap if you download or not, but don't lie to yourself about it.</blockquote> But that implies that another party is making money off of our work. That would be the same as if someone downloaded music and then sold CD copies of the bootlegged album. I don't think anyone is doing that here.</blockquote> It doesn't matter if they are making money or giving them out for free. They are stealing your hard work and not paying you for it. Kids who steal cars and joyride them are not generally making a profit. They are still stealing. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T16:08:04-04:00 2632731 997 2009-09-26T16:08:04-04:00 I think its a tough subject, and that everyone will have different opinions.. It can't really be compared to anything because you aren't physically taking anything, and you're not printing/distributing it. (If you are distributing it, then thats silly). 81641 Post 2009-09-26T16:14:38-04:00 2632761 35211 2009-09-26T16:14:38-04:00 It's silly for someone to distribute it, cuz they're stealing, but it's not silly for you to receive it from them, cuz why? 81641 Post 2009-09-26T16:15:51-04:00 2632781 997 2009-09-26T16:15:51-04:00 <blockquote><cite>heavyprints said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>valorandvellum said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>heavyprints said:</cite> I reckon when people in indonesia steal our artwork and print it on shirts - it doesn't hurt us at all cuz they didn't STEAL anything, they just made copies of it. Maybe someone will buy the shirt for $3, realize that we are good artists, and buy our own shirt for $20! Yeah! That's what they'll do! You see, bootleggers are actually doing us a great service. I mean, without them how would anybody know if they liked our artwork or not? What? I don't give a crap if you download or not, but don't lie to yourself about it.</blockquote> But that implies that another party is making money off of our work. That would be the same as if someone downloaded music and then sold CD copies of the bootlegged album. I don't think anyone is doing that here.</blockquote> It doesn't matter if they are making money or giving them out for free. They are stealing your hard work and not paying you for it. Kids who steal cars and joyride them are not generally making a profit. They are still stealing.</blockquote> for the last time: its NOT LIKE STEALING A CAR! its CLONING IT so you and your friend have 2 cars! the government can't make any money off of filesharing, so they slap it with an illegal tag and give some bullshit guilt trip shit. every muscician i've talked to said they get barely any money from cd's unless they make them themselves. they get no hype unless people HEAR them... so it causes a dilemma. like i said, i'm all FOR buying the cd, and supporting the band with going to their shows, but jesus, you gotta pass out a few burnt cd's to get people in on their good music. i guarantee you if you dig the music, and you love the band you WILL buy the cd or tshirt. dont do drugs. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T16:16:59-04:00 2632821 10321 2009-09-26T16:16:59-04:00 <blockquote><cite>heavyprints said:</cite> It's silly for someone to distribute it, cuz they're stealing, but it's not silly for you to receive it from them, cuz why?</blockquote> as in, burning the music to CD's and then selling them. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T16:18:27-04:00 2632861 35211 2009-09-26T16:18:27-04:00 Scumbag, What are copyrights, trademarks, and patents for? I'm not even addressing you, I read your arguments up there and chose to not speak directly to you. It's not that I wouldn't argue with you, it's that you have proven yourself incapable of grasping the concepts already, and there's no point in trying to teach a rock to run. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T16:20:53-04:00 2632901 997 2009-09-26T16:25:01-04:00 IAMSCUMBAG, not only do your arguments make little sense and have little structural coherency, now you're just purposely trying to put your opinion in several comments again and again. We get your opinion. On the debate: I sometimes print off a picture from an artist I like and tape it to my bedroom wall, this is techincally the same thing isn't it? and when I swap cd's with my friends thats the same too ? 81641 Post 2009-09-26T16:26:29-04:00 2632951 9211 2009-09-26T16:26:46-04:00 There is a famous case (can't remember which paticular one) where a person takes a test paper with the answers, photocopies it and then puts the original back.. while keeping the photocopied one for himself, which ofcourse.. is not theft. This sorta applies to downloading files, you're not actually taking the music/video or whatever.. you're just copying it. Dont know if that made sense.. flashbacks to GCSE Law ahaha. Edit; But i can completely understand where you're coming from heavyprints. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T16:27:39-04:00 2632961 35211 2009-09-26T16:28:02-04:00 If you read the beginning of the book, you would notice that it's copyrighted, and it is illegal to duplicate the book(in whole or in part). Legally, you could quote a small excerpt as long as you gave credit to the author for the quote. I don't think many people would be interested in downloading music if it only came in 10 second snippets per song though. And I mean as far as "copying".. like I said earlier: People who sell bootleg t-shirts aren't stealing them either. They are printing copies. Do you think that's right? Whether or not they are selling them, the profit is not what makes it theft, it's the act of reproducing something that isn't theirs to reproduce. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T16:37:49-04:00 2633021 997 2009-09-26T16:37:49-04:00 <blockquote><cite>heavyprints said:</cite> I don't understand why you think something has to have a physical presence to be stolen? What are copyrights, trademarks, and patents for? I'm not even addressing you, I read your arguments up there and chose to not speak directly to you. It's not that I wouldn't argue with you, it's that you have proven yourself incapable of grasping the concepts already, and there's no point in trying to teach a rock to run.</blockquote> file sharing is FILE SHARING. it hurts the record industry somewhat...but not by much. if this was such a huge problem, why are there still cd stores? you have to balance yourself in life. download a song that you dont have and stick it on your ipod. make a playlist for a longass trip. The RIAA is backing down anyway and coming up with alternate forms of things... they made napster a pay as you go thing, etc. but they realized that people will just continue to share what they have, it doesent make it right, it doesent make it wrong if their intentions are to make others happy by sharing. hell if this is such a problem, why is there a feature on the Zune to file swap wirelessly? you pay for the digital file, you can do what you want with it. i personally will buy the cd if i like the band. what else are they going to sign when i drive hours to see them in concert? my asscheek? no. its illegal to copyright infringe, and it will always be illegal. but this doesent give ANYONE the right to say its right or wrong if our intentions are for good. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T16:40:37-04:00 2633041 10321 2009-09-26T16:40:37-04:00 <blockquote><cite>heavyprints said:</cite> I reckon when people in indonesia steal our artwork and print it on shirts - it doesn't hurt us at all cuz they didn't STEAL anything, they just made copies of it. Maybe someone will buy the shirt for $3, realize that we are good artists, and buy our own shirt for $20! Yeah! That's what they'll do! You see, bootleggers are actually doing us a great service. I mean, without them how would anybody know if they liked our artwork or not? What? I don't give a crap if you download or not, but don't lie to yourself about it.</blockquote> Who is making money off of these pirated downloads? Demonoid makes money off of advertising, I'd assume, but it also has a lot of bandwidth to pay for. So as far as Indonesians selling bootleg ripped shirts, it just seems kind of apples to oranges. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T16:46:10-04:00 2633061 12325 2009-09-26T16:46:10-04:00 <img src="http://www.defendini.com/news-pirate_bay.jpg"> These are some rough waters! ARRRRR! that be up in this thread! 81641 Post 2009-09-26T16:51:25-04:00 2633101 10321 2009-09-26T16:51:25-04:00 Aye intentions make all the difference! Hitler, he was trying to make an awesome race of people. Great intentions. I reckon we have no right to say that killing jews was wrong - His intentions were good! That's ridiculous. And who are <i>you</i> to decide how much damage to the record industry is too much damage to the record industry? Seriously? You pay for the rights to have the file, you do not pay for the rights to duplicate the file. The cost of buying artwork, and the cost of buying <i>The Rights</i> to artwork are not the same thing. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T16:54:03-04:00 2633121 997 2009-09-26T16:54:03-04:00 <blockquote><cite>AetoricDesign said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>heavyprints said:</cite> I reckon when people in indonesia steal our artwork and print it on shirts - it doesn't hurt us at all cuz they didn't STEAL anything, they just made copies of it. Maybe someone will buy the shirt for $3, realize that we are good artists, and buy our own shirt for $20! Yeah! That's what they'll do! You see, bootleggers are actually doing us a great service. I mean, without them how would anybody know if they liked our artwork or not? What? I don't give a crap if you download or not, but don't lie to yourself about it.</blockquote> Who is making money off of these pirated downloads? Demonoid makes money off of advertising, I'd assume, but it also has a lot of bandwidth to pay for. So as far as Indonesians selling bootleg ripped shirts, it just seems kind of apples to oranges.</blockquote> You don't have to make profit off of something to steal it. You seem to not be reading my entire comment. If I steal something and don't sell it - It's still stealing! 81641 Post 2009-09-26T16:55:43-04:00 2633141 997 2009-09-26T16:55:43-04:00 I would say if you are honest enough and you want to keep your mind clear, if you really care about this. Download the famous previews that you can listen and delete them in 24 hours, alright if you like the album or the art buy it. You don't have the money right now, keep a wish list of the albums you have downloaded and buy it when you got the money. At least at the end you will be paying for the album, and thats why all the people argue on this. *Keeping the "honesty" dont pass the album to your friends. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T17:03:28-04:00 2633201 6279 2009-09-26T17:04:02-04:00 <blockquote><cite>I AM SCUMBAG said:</cite> the industry is taking BIG steps in trying to eliminate even VIDEO GAME CONSOLES. check out On Live. they are going to just do it over the web. the system is running somewhere in this big facility, and they are going to, for a low fee charge people to play games. its just slowly moving to the point where downloading isnt a problem anymore. hell even porn is free these days. with sites like youporn, and things like that. its up for grabs. whats the difference in clicking "add to playlist" and "download to ipod" we're still hearing the music, and falling in love with the bands. </blockquote> There hasn't been any news about On Live in months. If it was real, they certainly would have had a presentation at E3 but there wasn't. The whole thing screams of a scam and at this point, will most likely not happen. Sites like You Porn aren't legal either. There might be some porn companies that allow the site to host those videos but the majority of the videos are on there illegally. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T17:05:48-04:00 2633221 6295 2009-09-26T17:06:09-04:00 <blockquote><cite>heavyprints said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>AetoricDesign said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>heavyprints said:</cite> I reckon when people in indonesia steal our artwork and print it on shirts - it doesn't hurt us at all cuz they didn't STEAL anything, they just made copies of it. Maybe someone will buy the shirt for $3, realize that we are good artists, and buy our own shirt for $20! Yeah! That's what they'll do! You see, bootleggers are actually doing us a great service. I mean, without them how would anybody know if they liked our artwork or not? What? I don't give a crap if you download or not, but don't lie to yourself about it.</blockquote> Who is making money off of these pirated downloads? Demonoid makes money off of advertising, I'd assume, but it also has a lot of bandwidth to pay for. So as far as Indonesians selling bootleg ripped shirts, it just seems kind of apples to oranges.</blockquote> You don't have to make profit off of something to steal it. You seem to not be reading my entire comment. If I steal something and don't sell it - It's still stealing!</blockquote> i did read that actually, but even with a car it seems like such a gap. Like I said I've pretty much gone the way of vinyl coupled with download or cd. CD an downloads alone aren't enough. My music collection is still about 70% purchased. As for what's on my computer, I barely listen to it. I usually have Last.fm on. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T17:13:11-04:00 2633261 12325 2009-09-26T17:13:11-04:00 Aetoric - Yeah, actually I thought you quoted a different comment at first. The reason I used such a different example is that people sometimes misjudge right and wrong when it's in a confusing context. I mean, taking something that isn't yours is stealing. How do you argue that, unless you are confused? Here is a later argument that I think makes it a little more clear: <blockquote>If you read the beginning of the book, you would notice that it’s copyrighted, and it is illegal to duplicate the book(in whole or in part).<br /><br /> Legally, you could quote a small excerpt as long as you gave credit to the author for the quote. I don’t think many people would be interested in downloading music if it only came in 10 second snippets per song though.<br /><br /> And I mean as far as "copying".. like I said earlier: People who sell bootleg t-shirts aren’t stealing them either. They are printing copies. Do you think that’s right? Whether or not they are selling them, the profit is not what makes it theft, it’s the act of reproducing something that isn’t theirs to reproduce. </blockquote> 81641 Post 2009-09-26T17:19:21-04:00 2633281 997 2009-09-26T17:21:04-04:00 <blockquote><cite>heavyprints said:</cite> Aye intentions make all the difference! Hitler, he was trying to make an awesome race of people. Great intentions. I reckon we have no right to say that killing jews was wrong - His intentions were good! That's ridiculous. And who are <i>you</i> to decide how much damage to the record industry is too much damage to the record industry? Seriously? You pay for the rights to have the file, you do not pay for the rights to duplicate the file. The cost of buying artwork, and the cost of buying <i>The Rights</i> to artwork are not the same thing.</blockquote> you know... i read a book about opening your mind to ideas and thoughts and not being ONE sided or Closed minded. i feel sorry for you dude. your defending this thing bringing up people like hitler, and just casting one judgement call after the next. you keep implying that i dont get it but i do. its got some wrong to it. its NOT 2 sided. HP, I take it you are are a good guy, you generally do the right thing, and i always see you give people respect. but the one thing i live my life on is: "Dont judge people" everyone has their reasons for whatever they do. be it "Good or bad" godmachine asked a question. he wanted to know if we could change his mind on something he really wasnt going to change his mind about in the first place. everyone keeps bringing up this and that, but the reality is... the laws are changing, and the world is constantly changing. what was once a big deal today, becomes old news tomorrow. and for the last time: <img src="http://www.blackgate.net/images/copying_is_not_piracy.png"> its copying! lol. i think we can all agree on this: buy more cd's, support local bands, spread more love. if "Downloading a song" to spread some hype means supporting that band, and the band is ok with it, well so be it. i'm not going to judge anyone. there is no right or wrong in this shit. the laws are the laws created by man. and the laws have been around since forever. if your going to say that you've NEVER downloaded a thing in your life, and dont own a SINGLE burnt cd, well dude you got to be the first person i've ever met that can honestly say that, and my hat's off to you. i give my full respect to those who do download and those who don't. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T17:23:26-04:00 2633301 10321 2009-09-26T17:23:26-04:00 I would like to refer you, scumbag, to my first post. I said, and I quote "I don’t give a crap if you download or not". This thread didn't ask for my personal opinion on people who download illegally. It asked for arguments FOR piracy that were good enough to legitimize it. I am simply debating the points made. "I had good intentions" is absolutely not a legitimate argument for the rightness of a thing. It is an argument for the rightness of your intentions, but you can do very wrong things for reasons you think are good. That is the point of the hitler argument. It is not my passing judgement on anyone. You can say you understand something all you want, but it doesn't make it true. I specifically said that I was not addressing you in an earlier post. You do this in just about every debate on the site since you have come back, you seldom make valid points, and I was not interested in writing 5 pages of responses back to you. I apologize to anyone I have already annoyed by responding to scumbags comments. I'm not up for half-thought arguments, or ridiculous accusations of my character today. Done here. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T17:38:41-04:00 2633391 997 2009-09-26T17:38:41-04:00 haha, getting people to work a real debate on emptees is the stuff of myth and legend.. yup, in a debate you must bring valid (logical) arguments for the side you take, even if you personally don't believe that's the righteous cause. that is why taking the piracy side is such a difficult thing in a debate, as it's so hard to find valid arguments that are not based on subjective points of view. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T17:44:16-04:00 2633421 3643 2009-09-26T17:44:32-04:00 Let me get scumbags views into perspective.You are saying that copying is not piracy! So i can take your latest design (which is very good and well loved) copy it without your knowledge and give it to all my friends,family stick it on the net do what the fuck i want with it and you would be cool with that? After all copying is not piracy. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T17:57:49-04:00 2633551 12032 2009-09-26T17:57:49-04:00 I download music. I am not ashamed to admit it, nor will I bullshit my way views on it to others. I will say this, I hate cds. I stopped buying cds, when i started downloading music, and started buying Vinyl. I own almost all my favorite albums that have come out on vinyl, on vinyl. Does this justify me downloading music? no. will i stop? no. I would rather hear the album, and decide if i like it, rather than buy the album, and hate it. I buy lots of merch, and do write ups of shows for two local papers, ( which i am stating that i attend alot of shows ). does this justify me downloading music? no. I have no argument. just my stance 81641 Post 2009-09-26T18:21:05-04:00 2633751 324 2009-09-26T18:21:05-04:00 we have a modded 360... it rules.. too bad i dont play video games hardly at all anymore... 81641 Post 2009-09-26T18:26:34-04:00 2633811 2870 2009-09-26T18:26:43-04:00 I'd be interested to find if any bands distribute some songs on places like Limewire and other file sharing programs intentionally to get the exposure. I'd be massively surprised if they don't. I believe software companies, like Adobe, do it because they are realistic enough about the amount of legitimately bought copies of their software and know that ultimately enough people will buy their stuff (apart from now....they're making a loss i think?). I think it's shocking that no "large" record company has sat down at the table, thought outside the box, and tried to figure out how to use file sharing places and similar things to their advantage. Honestly, i can't believe they think they can completely stop it. One big label needs to take the step and take a risk, and it could pay off brilliantly if they got it right. New incentives other than the music for customers would be a good place to start. An industry can only work on the same model for so long surely? The Trent Reznor story linked above was a good read, and is very symbolic in my opinion. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T19:01:16-04:00 2634051 6884 2009-09-26T19:04:46-04:00 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL9-esIM2CY 81641 Post 2009-09-26T19:25:41-04:00 2634321 12224 2009-09-26T19:25:41-04:00 <blockquote><cite>disembodied head said:</cite> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL9-esIM2CY</blockquote> That's a bit awesome. Quite a catchy song. I wonder if it'll get illegally downloaded...... 81641 Post 2009-09-26T19:34:24-04:00 2634401 6884 2009-09-26T19:34:24-04:00 <blockquote><cite>disembodied head said:</cite> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL9-esIM2CY</blockquote> tuneeeeee! 81641 Post 2009-09-26T19:36:01-04:00 2634421 35211 2009-09-26T19:36:01-04:00 I buy all of my music (bar The Daytrotter sessions, and other free stuff). Yeah sometimes you buy a shit CD - but that's part of the journey as far as I'm concerned. If I want to test something out - there's freaking previews on iTunes, or you can go instore and preview it there. You can also sample tracks on MySpace. There hasn't been an easier time in the history of the world to preview something legally than now. Since I moved and took a lower paying job I've had to cut back on buying music a lot - it makes me appreciate the music I buy more. I myself enjoy the whole ritual of buying music. I think you can do what you want - but to me theft is theft. We have hundreds upon thousands of rip threads, yet there still seems to be some confusion. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T19:36:30-04:00 2634431 3005 2009-09-26T19:37:09-04:00 I don't want to waste money on something I haven't heard before. Myspace music can be great in that aspect. When walking down the aisles in a music store I don't want to buy the latest ADTR album just because of the artwork and what people have been saying about it. I'd be less concerned if I was hurting some corporate fat cat's wallet than if I were actually hindering the band. Without pirating I wouldn't have attended these band's shows, and bought the merch (all over worth more than the cost of 2-3 of their CDs). And I hope more than half the bands/artists out there aren't in it for fame and money. CDs are also becoming a little obsolete in this digital age, sure it doesn't mean it is OK to pirate the music. The music industry should just play catch up and create a more accessible method to listen to music than pirating. Once pirating requires more effort to download compared to a new system people aren't going to bother with it. iTunes music store is good, so are alot of online music stores. Yet these stores are also solely concerned with themselves rather than the music they distribute. One universal, compatible system would be far greater. Nagging people to stop never helped anyone either. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T19:48:13-04:00 2634561 9328 2009-09-26T19:51:54-04:00 my bands album was on a blogspot a day after we released it and has been downloaded thousands of times. we havent sold a single physical CD. but if it hadnt leaked people wouldnt know about us and we wouldnt have been able to set up the european tour which is a first for any band in the history of my country. so my opinion is download away, there are very few bands actually making a profit from album sales anyway. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T19:59:51-04:00 2634641 51721 2009-09-26T19:59:51-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Alejandro Prez said:</cite> my bands album was on a blogspot a day after we released it and has been downloaded thousands of times. we havent sold a single physical CD. but if it hadnt leaked people wouldnt know about us and we wouldnt have been able to set up the european tour which is a first for any band in the history of my country. so my opinion is download away, there are very few bands actually making a profit from album sales anyway.</blockquote> I think it's a stepping stone for new artists to get their name out there. Trent Reznor gave his last album away for free, but i'm sure he made a killing on merch for his tour 81641 Post 2009-09-26T20:03:55-04:00 2634721 12224 2009-09-26T20:03:55-04:00 <blockquote><cite>disembodied head said:</cite> I think it's a stepping stone for new artists to get their name out there. Trent Reznor gave his last album away for free, but i'm sure he made a killing on merch for his tour</blockquote> I'll agree with that. We gave out our demos for free, and established a fairly decent name, with basically nothing but four shitty demos to speak for us. However, more established bands don't really need filesharing as much as they need a steady paycheck and other means of promotion (AP ads, etc). As far as whether or not it hurts the band, it all depends on the contract. Sure, a band that gets 3% isn't going to miss it - but some bands are lucky enough to go 50/50 with their label. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T20:19:15-04:00 2634841 9208 2009-09-26T20:19:15-04:00 I don't support it. Same as ripping someone else's design. They work for it, if you want it, pay for it. Especially struggling small bands that really need CD sales to support their work..just pay the $10 and buy a shirt. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T21:16:31-04:00 2635161 44251 2009-09-26T21:16:31-04:00 I can't create an argument that will settle the right vs. wrong of this subject, however here's my case on it. I go to a lot of shows (well, used to) and prefer buying the bands CD from them there if possible. But yea, I download, too... a lot. If I enjoy an album enough though, I feel the need to go out and purchase it in support of the group. Today I bought the new Polar Bear Club album. I have been super hooked on them since seeing them live. I also bought a Rick James album, something I could have downloaded easily, I'm sure. 81641 Post 2009-09-26T21:20:47-04:00 2635201 1025 2009-09-26T21:32:23-04:00 plus... <blockquote><cite>Godmachine said:</cite> I like having the artwork.</blockquote> 81641 Post 2009-09-26T21:27:24-04:00 2635281 1025 2009-09-26T21:27:24-04:00 <blockquote><cite>I AM SCUMBAG said:</cite> godmachine asked a question. he wanted to know if we could change his mind on something he really wasnt going to change his mind about in the first place. </blockquote> "Don't Make Assumptions. Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life." Miguel Angel Ruiz 81641 Post 2009-09-26T23:16:04-04:00 2635991 2802 2009-09-26T23:16:04-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Alejandro Prez said:</cite> my bands album was on a blogspot a day after we released it and has been downloaded thousands of times. we havent sold a single physical CD. but if it hadnt leaked people wouldnt know about us and we wouldnt have been able to set up the european tour which is a first for any band in the history of my country. so my opinion is download away, there are very few bands actually making a profit from album sales anyway.</blockquote> My old band toured Australia and we had a grip of kids singing along every night (more than we had at US tours) and I can definitely say that was due to people downloading our record considering it was only released in Australia a week or two before the tour. I think there is obviously both positive and negative effects from people downloading music but in my mind (for smaller bands, at least) the exposure that having easily accessible music brings will result in the band itself seeing the direct benefits (larger draw, more merch sales, better crowd response) 81641 Post 2009-09-26T23:59:04-04:00 2636441 32041 2009-09-27T00:01:09-04:00 if i download something and it sucks i usually won't listen to it. if i do end up enjoying it, the chances of me actually buying it go up drastically, especially if the artwork is legit. 81641 Post 2009-09-27T00:12:37-04:00 2636541 1638 2009-09-27T00:12:37-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Bear D&P said:</cite> I download music. I am not ashamed to admit it, nor will I bullshit my way views on it to others. Does this justify me downloading music? no. will i stop? no. I would rather hear the album, and decide if i like it, rather than buy the album, and hate it. I buy lots of merch, and do write ups of shows for two local papers, ( which i am stating that i attend alot of shows ). does this justify me downloading music? no. I have no argument. just my stance</blockquote> This ... 81641 Post 2009-09-27T00:33:52-04:00 2636681 52411 2009-09-27T00:33:52-04:00 The way I work is that I will download music with a p2p and if I like the album I delete the files and buy the album to support a body of work that I like, but if I think it's shit then I will still delete the files, but I don't buy the ablum 81641 Post 2009-09-27T00:59:06-04:00 2636801 10846 2009-09-27T00:59:06-04:00 I don't think that any of us should kid ourselves and say that we buy all of the music that we like. 81641 Post 2009-09-27T01:03:51-04:00 2636841 9208 2009-09-27T01:03:51-04:00 I download and save my money for the merch and the shows where it really counts. Bands don't fret over music sales anymore so its not a big deal...the merch and the turnout they get at shows is what counts. 81641 Post 2009-09-27T01:14:29-04:00 2636961 8881 2009-09-27T01:14:29-04:00 It's funny, I just wrote an article about this. Kinda. http://emptees.com/resources/1331-print-shirts-or-die-a-simple-formula-for-getting-out-of-your-shitty-town 81641 Post 2009-09-27T01:17:32-04:00 2636981 59851 2009-09-27T01:17:32-04:00 i download music (illegally) and then if its good i usually go and buy the album. jay-z has had much success due to his bootleg of blueprint 3 - a few days before the album release a bootleg came out to rave reviews, and at one of the last shows he had before the release he noticed that a lot of his fans knew the words already. regarding the leak he said <blockquote>"I may be the most bootlegged artist in history," he said in an interview after learning the news. "It's a preview. I'm excited for people to hear the album. I'm very proud of the work I've down, so enjoy it...My pager is actually ringing right now, so people are probably calling me and telling me they pretty much like it. I can tell by the way my pager rings if a song is good or not. It's really going crazy right now." (MTV)</blockquote> so in reality, he actually <i>made</i> money from people who originally downloaded the illegal one, either by their attendance at his shows (present or future) or them buying the album once its officially out, such as myself. i mean you can go to an art gallery and have a look at the painting and not buy it, right? 81641 Post 2009-09-27T02:34:27-04:00 2637461 11896 2009-09-27T02:34:27-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Mulder said:</cite> Sites like You Porn aren't legal either. There might be some porn companies that allow the site to host those videos but the majority of the videos are on there illegally.</blockquote> isnt youporn like youtube but only for porn? like user submitted porn where it is assumed that they own the rights to the video? 81641 Post 2009-09-27T02:42:21-04:00 2637571 11896 2009-09-27T02:42:21-04:00 I don't think illegal file sharing and downloads are killing music at all. If artists love the music they make so much and want as many people to like and listen to it as possible then they wouldn't mind. It's only the greedy big names in the music industry that complain because they're losing out on profits. If I had the money to pay for the 10 albums I download a week then I would buy them, but I don't. I'm sure most of the bands I listen to (from downloading their record/s) would much more appreciate the fact I listen and love the music they make rather than the fact that I bought their record/s, if I did. 81641 Post 2009-09-27T02:47:37-04:00 2637661 11856 2009-09-27T02:47:54-04:00 <blockquote><cite>DCAY said:</cite> I can't create an argument that will settle the right vs. wrong of this subject, however here's my case on it. I go to a lot of shows (well, used to) and prefer buying the bands CD from them there if possible. But yea, I download, too... a lot. If I enjoy an album enough though, I feel the need to go out and purchase it in support of the group. Today I bought the new Polar Bear Club album. I have been super hooked on them since seeing them live. I also bought a Rick James album, something I could have downloaded easily, I'm sure.</blockquote> In the same position. 81641 Post 2009-09-27T03:07:04-04:00 2637991 11176 2009-09-27T03:07:04-04:00 <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL9-esIM2CY">Dan Bull - Dear Lily [an open letter to Lily Allen]</a> 81641 Post 2009-09-27T05:15:10-04:00 2639221 8981 2009-09-27T05:16:42-04:00 I don't think anyone has said it yet GM - but can you please add another 'l' into the title there? :) 81641 Post 2009-09-27T07:34:45-04:00 2639681 3005 2009-09-27T07:34:45-04:00 i also think its record companies more so than artists who get their panties in a bunch due to illegal downloading. they want to mlik every last cent out of the artist, while the artist wants to have an enthusiastic crowd that really enjoys the music, even if they didnt buy it. they can make far more money by having people buy their merch and tickets to their shows than the albums. for example, i have never bought a blink 182 cd, but i bought over $200 in tickets and band merchandise for one show. and i would assume blink gets a higher cut on that stuff than on cd's. had i never illegally downloaded their music and enjoyed it, i would of never went to the show or bought their stuff. 81641 Post 2009-09-27T13:30:30-04:00 2641771 11896 2009-09-27T13:30:30-04:00 Fuck that Politics and emptees don't mix I dont want to read every single Post D: 81641 Post 2009-09-27T13:48:01-04:00 2641971 10727 2009-09-27T13:48:01-04:00 download the music if you just want the music. if you want to give the record label some money so they can continue to put out that bands albums, buy the albums. if you want to support the band directly, go to shows, buy merch, if they dont have a place to stay let them crash at your house, give them some food, whatever helps them out. 81641 Post 2009-09-27T14:06:14-04:00 2642071 8975 2009-09-27T14:06:14-04:00 i did not read all of this, but I totally agree with the original post I find myself regularly being asked for software from people who assume I have just downloaded it illegally I think those who do the right thing are in the vast minority 81641 Post 2009-09-27T14:26:16-04:00 2642371 7336 2009-09-27T14:26:16-04:00 One aspect not mentioned after reading all of this is audio quality. Most leaks and downloads are shit quality at around 192kbs. About a month after the release you can maybe find torrents at 320kbs of mp3 files. If the band is really small and not known, you would be lucky to get anything at 320kbs. As a moderate audiophile I need lossless music, whether it be FLAC, WMA lossless, or Apple's lossless format. Finding lossless audio online is hard. Sure the big name bands will have FLAC torrents for most of their albums, but most bands won't. The good thing about buying the CD versus Zune Marketplace or iTunes store is the quality. You can rip the CD to your computer in all of its 1411kbs glory. Zune marketplace downloads are normally 320kbs mp3s, I forget what iTunes downloads were. DRM sucks on iTunes but I hate having physical media so that is a dilemma. I stopped buying from iTunes because of DRM issues. If I buy a CD, rip it to my computer, then sell it on half.com is that piracy? Assuming those files only stay on my computer/mp3 player. I figure once I buy the content on the disc by buying the disc I can do whatever I want with it as long I don't give the content to anyone else. I am probably buying a zune soon, but not the zune pass subscription. The zune pass is a great deal though. $15 a month for all the music you want, keep 10 tracks a month. 81641 Post 2009-09-27T14:46:51-04:00 2642691 6600 2009-09-27T14:46:51-04:00 i download songs, if i really like the majority of the album, i buy it. the bands only make a few pennies off of each album sale so im never worried about screwing the band out of money, unless its an unsigned band, in which case you usually cant find free downloads of said band. i go to shows, i buy merch, i watch the band. Let me break it all down for you guys. _________________________________________________________________________ lets use blink 182 as an example (please note that this is purely an example and i didnt do exact research, this is just ballpark) Blink 182 say an album goes platinum $12.99 (album cost) X 1,000,000 (Platinum record sales)=$129,900,000 .4 cents made off of every album sale goes to band. $400,000 divide that by the number of band members (3 for blink) $133,333 divide that by the ruff number of albums per year lets round up and say 1 every year although we know blink released less. $11,111 per month so thats $2,777 a week that each band member makes of of being a PLATINUM ALBUM BAND they've sold over a Million records of this album and are only making less than 3 grand a week off of it. this is for a $12.99 cd that will provide endless hours of listening pleasure. now lets look at the tour shall we? Blink 182 tour. ticket $60 (there were also lawn tix for 20 so we will round to 40 bucks) band tee $30 40+30=$70 they made off of one person for an hour and a half set. $1,400,000 FOR 1 SHOW! arena tour to 55 dates of 20,000 capacity venues=HUGE BANK! We will consider that not all venues will sell out and not all hold 20,000 people so we will undershoot it and say 10,000 people per show. $38,500,000 for the tour. this tour is like 3 months long. but since theres usually 1 tour a year we will say year earnings. we will also estimate and divide it by 3 to take out costs of other bands cut and tour costs. which leaves $12,833,333 divided by 3 band members $4,277,777 for each band member per year. so thats $356,481 per month and $89,120 per week each member is making on tour. so sum it up $2,777 a WEEK each member is making for cd sales. $89,120 per WEEK each member is making on Tour. the money ISNT in the cd sales, its live performance and merch sales. Just thought id waste some time with calculations lol. no wonder i want to be a musician lol. 81641 Post 2009-09-28T14:00:13-04:00 2655131 12759 2009-09-28T14:01:18-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Deformed Giraffe said:</cite> Let me get scumbags views into perspective.You are saying that copying is not piracy! So i can take your latest design (which is very good and well loved) copy it without your knowledge and give it to all my friends,family stick it on the net do what the fuck i want with it and you would be cool with that? After all copying is not piracy.</blockquote> lol if you have the money to make prints, give me credit for the design, and show people with the intentions that they go and pass my name around... knock yourself out. advertising is advertising. especially if you PAID for the shirts, paid for the ink, and paid for the prints. give give and give. we pay for internet, we pay for blank cds, hell we pay for ink to print labels on our cds. if we give away stuff without personal gain, and our intentions are to help others get their name out, its not that big a deal. as long as you are doing something with the intentions for good, why need to worry about if your doing bad. if you feel you need to debate it, and you feel that you will get in trouble for doing it, then your obviously doing something wrong. i feel like we all need a good balance of things in life. good or bad. we need to balance out the ways we do things. buy a cd. download a song. give away a cd to a friend. give away a song to a friend. balance people, and humility. just doing things with the intentions for good. i'd prefer getting digital copies of EVERYTHING. why waste more plastic on cds? go green! go digital! spread love. 81641 Post 2009-09-28T15:28:31-04:00 2656351 10321 2009-09-28T15:28:31-04:00 Just imagine what will happen when DTG printing is as cheap to print shirts as printing to paper at home. few years tops. 81641 Post 2009-09-28T20:57:10-04:00 2660281 4344 2009-09-28T20:57:10-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Eternyl said:</cite> Just imagine what will happen when DTG printing is as cheap to print shirts as printing to paper at home. few years tops.</blockquote> not likely. 81641 Post 2009-09-28T21:06:32-04:00 2660471 4171 2009-09-28T21:06:32-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Eternyl said:</cite> Just imagine what will happen when DTG printing is as cheap to print shirts as printing to paper at home. few years tops.</blockquote> Hmmmmm nope. 81641 Post 2009-09-28T21:55:17-04:00 2661091 44251 2009-09-28T21:55:17-04:00 The opening question is flawed. You have to agree that its stealing and then debate that... no fun. How about this. Using a library book as an analogy for electronic data and the internet as one giant library, I pose this question. If you bought a book from your library and lost it, would it be ok if you found another copy laying around at someones house... lol, still sounds stupid.. This is no win here.. I'm going to watch Hoarders. 81641 Post 2009-09-28T22:05:19-04:00 2661151 5504 2009-09-28T22:05:19-04:00 Stealing/pirating/sharing music is something I am against though I do feel it is fine to download a CD/song and then if you like it actually pay for it or make sure to at least purchase tickets or future music from the artist or show some support. In the long run, you should just avoid stealing music, you wouldn't want your art getting stolen would you? haha. As far as other things like software (Photoshop, etc) I think its totally acceptable when you are starting out and have limited resources as obviously $700 for photoshop as a 18 year old is pretty insane. However say you get good at it and actually start making good money from it then there on out you SHOULD purchase it. You got your start now show some respect back is how I see it. Just my thoughts... 81641 Post 2009-09-29T01:58:05-04:00 2663891 11199 2009-09-29T01:58:05-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Monster Pop said:</cite> i download songs, if i really like the majority of the album, i buy it. the bands only make a few pennies off of each album sale so im never worried about screwing the band out of money, unless its an unsigned band, in which case you usually cant find free downloads of said band. i go to shows, i buy merch, i watch the band. Let me break it all down for you guys. _________________________________________________________________________ lets use blink 182 as an example (please note that this is purely an example and i didnt do exact research, this is just ballpark) Blink 182 say an album goes platinum $12.99 (album cost) X 1,000,000 (Platinum record sales)=$129,900,000 .4 cents made off of every album sale goes to band. $400,000 divide that by the number of band members (3 for blink) $133,333 divide that by the ruff number of albums per year lets round up and say 1 every year although we know blink released less. $11,111 per month so thats $2,777 a week that each band member makes of of being a PLATINUM ALBUM BAND they've sold over a Million records of this album and are only making less than 3 grand a week off of it. this is for a $12.99 cd that will provide endless hours of listening pleasure. now lets look at the tour shall we? Blink 182 tour. ticket $60 (there were also lawn tix for 20 so we will round to 40 bucks) band tee $30 40+30=$70 they made off of one person for an hour and a half set. $1,400,000 FOR 1 SHOW! arena tour to 55 dates of 20,000 capacity venues=HUGE BANK! We will consider that not all venues will sell out and not all hold 20,000 people so we will undershoot it and say 10,000 people per show. $38,500,000 for the tour. this tour is like 3 months long. but since theres usually 1 tour a year we will say year earnings. we will also estimate and divide it by 3 to take out costs of other bands cut and tour costs. which leaves $12,833,333 divided by 3 band members $4,277,777 for each band member per year. so thats $356,481 per month and $89,120 per week each member is making on tour. so sum it up $2,777 a WEEK each member is making for cd sales. $89,120 per WEEK each member is making on Tour. the money ISNT in the cd sales, its live performance and merch sales. Just thought id waste some time with calculations lol. no wonder i want to be a musician lol.</blockquote> I'm sure the CD sales profit for the band is a little more than .4 cents. A band usually gets 12-15% of anywhere from $6-$12 of that money depending on the label/contract. Its still not a lot though. As for tour, they definitely make a lot more! 81641 Post 2009-09-29T02:03:38-04:00 2664001 11199 2009-09-29T02:03:38-04:00 do indonesian sippers even ship out of the country? im just owndering i know its not right to steal but what other ways will they get yoru art? they can not afford american prices most likely. maybe you should have a a price list for less wealthy countires and not ship outside of those countries? im not sure if that made anysense at all.. im kinda drunk. 81641 Post 2009-09-29T02:16:03-04:00 2664091 9543 2009-09-29T02:16:27-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Lazyeye said:</cite> The opening question is flawed. You have to agree that its stealing and then debate that... no fun. How about this. Using a library book as an analogy for electronic data and the internet as one giant library, I pose this question. If you bought a book from your library and lost it, would it be ok if you found another copy laying around at someones house... lol, still sounds stupid.. This is no win here.. I'm going to watch Hoarders.</blockquote> hello, how is the question flawed? and the library analogy is weird. It seems that the subject is a difficult one to grasp let alone justify. 81641 Post 2009-09-29T03:13:31-04:00 2664691 2802 2009-09-29T03:13:31-04:00 <blockquote><cite>I AM SCUMBAG said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>Deformed Giraffe said:</cite> Let me get scumbags views into perspective.You are saying that copying is not piracy! So i can take your latest design (which is very good and well loved) copy it without your knowledge and give it to all my friends,family stick it on the net do what the fuck i want with it and you would be cool with that? After all copying is not piracy.</blockquote> lol if you have the money to make prints, give me credit for the design, and show people with the intentions that they go and pass my name around... knock yourself out. advertising is advertising. especially if you PAID for the shirts, paid for the ink, and paid for the prints. give give and give. we pay for internet, we pay for blank cds, hell we pay for ink to print labels on our cds. if we give away stuff without personal gain, and our intentions are to help others get their name out, its not that big a deal. as long as you are doing something with the intentions for good, why need to worry about if your doing bad. if you feel you need to debate it, and you feel that you will get in trouble for doing it, then your obviously doing something wrong. i feel like we all need a good balance of things in life. good or bad. we need to balance out the ways we do things. buy a cd. download a song. give away a cd to a friend. give away a song to a friend. balance people, and humility. just doing things with the intentions for good. i'd prefer getting digital copies of EVERYTHING. why waste more plastic on cds? go green! go digital! spread love.</blockquote> I agree with i am a scumbag, stealing shit is ok. 81641 Post 2009-09-29T03:26:52-04:00 2664861 9442 2009-09-29T03:26:52-04:00 piracy is the first sense of freedom in the new world. Steal from the rich, live like the poor. All treated like pigs on both sides. Softwares, Hardwares, firewires, and cereal oats. Pirates, gold tooth, wooden legs, and bearded goats. None make money. Pirates only hustle for death. Against the system. remain underground. Adapt to that. Nothing really gets answered. It just goes full circle. A better question yet: 'what would it be like if there was no piracy, would you live in it?' 81641 Post 2009-09-29T03:36:37-04:00 2665011 7039 2009-09-29T03:36:37-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Hitchman said:</cite> Scumag .. you seem to contradict yourself from thread to thread depending on what the issue is.. stealing is stealing, be it mp3's, software or ripping artwork.. just saying.</blockquote> there is a lot of talk off emptees on how the guy may be semi-retarded coz he can contradict himself in the same sentence and always makes no sense whatsoever. this statement can only be written by a semi-retarded granola bar right? "as long as you are doing something with the intentions for good, why need to worry about if your doing bad. if you feel you need to debate it, and you feel that you will get in trouble for doing it, then your obviously doing something wrong" 81641 Post 2009-09-29T03:49:20-04:00 2665211 9442 2009-09-29T03:49:20-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Godmachine said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>Lazyeye said:</cite> The opening question is flawed. You have to agree that its stealing and then debate that... no fun. How about this. Using a library book as an analogy for electronic data and the internet as one giant library, I pose this question. If you bought a book from your library and lost it, would it be ok if you found another copy laying around at someones house... lol, still sounds stupid.. This is no win here.. I'm going to watch Hoarders.</blockquote> hello, how is the question flawed? and the library analogy is weird. It seems that the subject is a difficult one to grasp let alone justify.</blockquote> I believe what he was trying to convey was the point that once something is purchased, it shouldn't have to be purchased a second time (in his example he lost something that he paid for...so why should he have to pay for it a second time? (with his logic)). I'm not opposed to this this idea, being that in this situation, the item in question was payed for originally...so downloading the mp3s won't hurt the industry in the slightest...the goods have already been paid for and his initial intentions were obviously good natured. 81641 Post 2009-09-29T03:55:23-04:00 2665261 12825 2009-09-29T03:55:23-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Cavalry said:</cite> Stealing/pirating/sharing music is something I am against though I do feel it is fine to download a CD/song and then if you like it actually pay for it or make sure to at least purchase tickets or future music from the artist or show some support. In the long run, you should just avoid stealing music, you wouldn't want your art getting stolen would you? haha. As far as other things like software (Photoshop, etc) I think its totally acceptable when you are starting out and have limited resources as obviously $700 for photoshop as a 18 year old is pretty insane. However say you get good at it and actually start making good money from it then there on out you SHOULD purchase it. You got your start now show some respect back is how I see it. Just my thoughts...</blockquote> so you are against it.......but not against it. 81641 Post 2009-09-29T04:00:35-04:00 2665321 65121 2009-09-29T04:00:35-04:00 <blockquote><cite>OvenRude said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>Eternyl said:</cite> Just imagine what will happen when DTG printing is as cheap to print shirts as printing to paper at home. few years tops.</blockquote> Hmmmmm nope.</blockquote> <blockquote><cite>Danimal! said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>Eternyl said:</cite> Just imagine what will happen when DTG printing is as cheap to print shirts as printing to paper at home. few years tops.</blockquote> not likely.</blockquote> You can already build a DTG printer out of a cheap epson and some woodwork for a couple of hundred bucks, and get white shirts in the neighborhood of a dollar a piece. Not that I really care about the argument, but the guy isn't crazy. You two just have no idea what you're talking about. 81641 Post 2009-09-29T04:12:36-04:00 2665451 997 2009-09-29T04:12:36-04:00 <blockquote><cite>MainframeMedia said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>Godmachine said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>Lazyeye said:</cite> The opening question is flawed. You have to agree that its stealing and then debate that... no fun. How about this. Using a library book as an analogy for electronic data and the internet as one giant library, I pose this question. If you bought a book from your library and lost it, would it be ok if you found another copy laying around at someones house... lol, still sounds stupid.. This is no win here.. I'm going to watch Hoarders.</blockquote> hello, how is the question flawed? and the library analogy is weird. It seems that the subject is a difficult one to grasp let alone justify.</blockquote> I believe what he was trying to convey was the point that once something is purchased, it shouldn't have to be purchased a second time (in his example he lost something that he paid for...so why should he have to pay for it a second time? (with his logic)). I'm not opposed to this this idea, being that in this situation, the item in question was payed for originally...so downloading the mp3s won't hurt the industry in the slightest...the goods have already been paid for and his initial intentions were obviously good natured.</blockquote> 1) The question is not flawed, at all. The question is about illegal downloading of music, and how people feel about it. 2) If you had paid any attention to the first part, you'd know enough about the question to know that this isn't talking about redownloading something you already own. It's about downloading files illegally. To argue very specific and obviously much less common circumstance is pretty pointless in a conversation. It really would merit its own discussion. 81641 Post 2009-09-29T04:22:25-04:00 2665601 997 2009-09-29T04:22:25-04:00 <blockquote><cite>heavyprints said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>OvenRude said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>Eternyl said:</cite> Just imagine what will happen when DTG printing is as cheap to print shirts as printing to paper at home. few years tops.</blockquote> Hmmmmm nope.</blockquote> <blockquote><cite>Danimal! said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>Eternyl said:</cite> Just imagine what will happen when DTG printing is as cheap to print shirts as printing to paper at home. few years tops.</blockquote> not likely.</blockquote> You can already build a DTG printer out of a cheap epson and some woodwork for a couple of hundred bucks, and get white shirts in the neighborhood of a dollar a piece. Not that I really care about the argument, but the guy isn't crazy. You two just have no idea what you're talking about.</blockquote> what does it cost to print a piece of paper? Like 1 or 2 cents. I have a feeling that I know enough to say with confidence DTG shirt printing will never whittle it's way down to the cost of paper printing. 81641 Post 2009-09-29T08:22:58-04:00 2667051 4171 2009-09-29T08:23:20-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Danimal! said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>heavyprints said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>OvenRude said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>Eternyl said:</cite> Just imagine what will happen when DTG printing is as cheap to print shirts as printing to paper at home. few years tops.</blockquote> Hmmmmm nope.</blockquote> <blockquote><cite>Danimal! said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>Eternyl said:</cite> Just imagine what will happen when DTG printing is as cheap to print shirts as printing to paper at home. few years tops.</blockquote> not likely.</blockquote> You can already build a DTG printer out of a cheap epson and some woodwork for a couple of hundred bucks, and get white shirts in the neighborhood of a dollar a piece. Not that I really care about the argument, but the guy isn't crazy. You two just have no idea what you're talking about.</blockquote> what does it cost to print a piece of paper? Like 1 or 2 cents. I have a feeling that I know enough to say with confidence DTG shirt printing will never whittle it's way down to the cost of paper printing.</blockquote> Considering the cheapness of the equipment, cheap ink on white shirts, and the cost of a shirt, you can already print a white shirt for under two dollars. How cheap do you really need it to be before you are willing to admit that his statement, as it applies to easy piracy - the subject of this thread, is not far off the mark? The entire point of his comment was that soon (if not already) it will be possible for anybody interested to get their hands on cheap and effective means of producing lasting prints on t-shirts. Which is an interesting perspective, when you consider that someone could just roll through emptees and print shirts based on the detail images, rather than buying them from clothing companies. He never said anything about the cost of shirts, anyway. He said, to print to shirts. You can already print white DTG shirts for under a dollar per shirt on ink costs. Assuming that as the technology ages, ink prices should eventually settle, it will not be long before textile ink is reasonably priced. Your comment is absolutely pointless, and a shining example of why it sucks to participate on this website, because people sit around waiting for a reason to try to be a dick. You could have just as easily kept your comment to yourself, regarding a subject that you know little about. Instead you chose to jump at the first chance to put someone else down. 81641 Post 2009-09-29T08:40:23-04:00 2667241 997 2009-09-29T08:40:23-04:00 this thread contains some of the worst analogies ive ever had the misfortune of reading 81641 Post 2009-09-29T08:57:28-04:00 2667561 1146 2009-09-29T08:57:28-04:00 <blockquote><cite>derekdeal said:</cite> this thread contains some of the worst analogies ive ever had the misfortune of reading</blockquote> my fav' was the mustang one. 81641 Post 2009-09-29T09:02:12-04:00 2667581 2802 2009-09-29T09:02:12-04:00 I think I called scumbag hitler one time. 81641 Post 2009-09-29T10:04:56-04:00 2668061 997 2009-09-29T10:04:56-04:00 I get all my music from iTunes. Not only does it uphold my morals against stealing, but it's also better quality than most ripped music. 81641 Post 2009-09-29T10:53:53-04:00 2668801 10688 2009-09-29T10:53:53-04:00 <img src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_tk3sgT70jr0/SorfUqZ_MQI/AAAAAAAAAD8/31NXHTPr0Aw/s320/Toe-Dipping-Into-Water.jpg" /> 81641 Post 2009-09-29T11:02:35-04:00 2669041 5570 2009-09-29T11:02:35-04:00 its like if you went to the zoo and gave a gorilla a banana, but they only sell peanuts at the park. Either way he's probably going end up masturbating or drinking his own pee. You're not supposed to feed the animals anyway, that's why the signs are there. 81641 Post 2009-09-29T11:14:54-04:00 2669181 1146 2009-09-29T11:14:54-04:00 Hahaha 81641 Post 2009-09-29T15:42:56-04:00 2672491 52551 2009-09-29T15:42:56-04:00 <blockquote><cite>heavyprints said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>Danimal! said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>heavyprints said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>OvenRude said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>Eternyl said:</cite> Just imagine what will happen when DTG printing is as cheap to print shirts as printing to paper at home. few years tops.</blockquote> Hmmmmm nope.</blockquote> <blockquote><cite>Danimal! said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>Eternyl said:</cite> Just imagine what will happen when DTG printing is as cheap to print shirts as printing to paper at home. few years tops.</blockquote> not likely.</blockquote> You can already build a DTG printer out of a cheap epson and some woodwork for a couple of hundred bucks, and get white shirts in the neighborhood of a dollar a piece. Not that I really care about the argument, but the guy isn't crazy. You two just have no idea what you're talking about.</blockquote> what does it cost to print a piece of paper? Like 1 or 2 cents. I have a feeling that I know enough to say with confidence DTG shirt printing will never whittle it's way down to the cost of paper printing.</blockquote> Considering the cheapness of the equipment, cheap ink on white shirts, and the cost of a shirt, you can already print a white shirt for under two dollars. How cheap do you really need it to be before you are willing to admit that his statement, as it applies to easy piracy - the subject of this thread, is not far off the mark? The entire point of his comment was that soon (if not already) it will be possible for anybody interested to get their hands on cheap and effective means of producing lasting prints on t-shirts. Which is an interesting perspective, when you consider that someone could just roll through emptees and print shirts based on the detail images, rather than buying them from clothing companies. He never said anything about the cost of shirts, anyway. He said, to print to shirts. You can already print white DTG shirts for under a dollar per shirt on ink costs. Assuming that as the technology ages, ink prices should eventually settle, it will not be long before textile ink is reasonably priced. Your comment is absolutely pointless, and a shining example of why it sucks to participate on this website, because people sit around waiting for a reason to try to be a dick. You could have just as easily kept your comment to yourself, regarding a subject that you know little about. Instead you chose to jump at the first chance to put someone else down.</blockquote> It sucks to be on emptees because I disagree that DTG printing will ever be as cheap as printing on a piece of paper? Plus, DTG ink is made specifically made for garment printing, where as ink in your standard printer is made for pretty much any paper application. Furthermore, standard printer ink is made in enormous quantities by tons of competing brands. What with there being so much less demand for garment ink, there is less competition and less innovation. Sorry Heavy, I didn't mean to ruin emptees. 81641 Post 2009-09-29T20:28:55-04:00 2676011 4171 2009-09-29T20:29:16-04:00 <img src="http://imgur.com/7AOOG.jpg" /> 81641 Post 2009-09-29T20:44:45-04:00 2676181 12224 2009-09-29T20:44:45-04:00 <blockquote><cite>derekdeal said:</cite> its like if you went to the zoo and gave a gorilla a banana, but they only sell peanuts at the park. Either way he's probably going end up masturbating or drinking his own pee. You're not supposed to feed the animals anyway, that's why the signs are there.</blockquote> yes. this. 81641 Post 2009-09-29T20:52:06-04:00 2676321 1404 2009-09-29T20:52:06-04:00 if i download 200 xvids in a month and watch, the film company hasent lost one single cent...as I would never BUY 200 dvds...in the month period I normaly buy 4-5 dvds...so they get the revenue that a normal customer would give them. On the other hand sites like itunes are quite corrupt in the way the sell a digital file for some times more than you can pick up the cd from a shelf...official digital files should cost a fraction of a cd. just my thoughts... 81641 Post 2009-09-29T21:01:03-04:00 2676411 2418 2009-09-29T21:01:03-04:00 <blockquote><cite>derekdeal said:</cite> its like if you went to the zoo and gave a gorilla a banana, but they only sell peanuts at the park. Either way he's probably going end up masturbating or drinking his own pee. You're not supposed to feed the animals anyway, that's why the signs are there.</blockquote> muwahahaha. never saw the animals that way. Now its more funny to go to the zoo. has anyone really seen a real gorilla masturbating? 81641 Post 2009-09-29T22:40:11-04:00 2677581 7039 2009-09-29T22:40:11-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Danimal! said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>heavyprints said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>Danimal! said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>heavyprints said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>OvenRude said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>Eternyl said:</cite> Just imagine what will happen when DTG printing is as cheap to print shirts as printing to paper at home. few years tops.</blockquote> Hmmmmm nope.</blockquote> <blockquote><cite>Danimal! said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>Eternyl said:</cite> Just imagine what will happen when DTG printing is as cheap to print shirts as printing to paper at home. few years tops.</blockquote> not likely.</blockquote> You can already build a DTG printer out of a cheap epson and some woodwork for a couple of hundred bucks, and get white shirts in the neighborhood of a dollar a piece. Not that I really care about the argument, but the guy isn't crazy. You two just have no idea what you're talking about.</blockquote> what does it cost to print a piece of paper? Like 1 or 2 cents. I have a feeling that I know enough to say with confidence DTG shirt printing will never whittle it's way down to the cost of paper printing.</blockquote> Considering the cheapness of the equipment, cheap ink on white shirts, and the cost of a shirt, you can already print a white shirt for under two dollars. How cheap do you really need it to be before you are willing to admit that his statement, as it applies to easy piracy - the subject of this thread, is not far off the mark? The entire point of his comment was that soon (if not already) it will be possible for anybody interested to get their hands on cheap and effective means of producing lasting prints on t-shirts. Which is an interesting perspective, when you consider that someone could just roll through emptees and print shirts based on the detail images, rather than buying them from clothing companies. He never said anything about the cost of shirts, anyway. He said, to print to shirts. You can already print white DTG shirts for under a dollar per shirt on ink costs. Assuming that as the technology ages, ink prices should eventually settle, it will not be long before textile ink is reasonably priced. Your comment is absolutely pointless, and a shining example of why it sucks to participate on this website, because people sit around waiting for a reason to try to be a dick. You could have just as easily kept your comment to yourself, regarding a subject that you know little about. Instead you chose to jump at the first chance to put someone else down.</blockquote> It sucks to be on emptees because I disagree that DTG printing will ever be as cheap as printing on a piece of paper? Plus, DTG ink is made specifically made for garment printing, where as ink in your standard printer is made for pretty much any paper application. Furthermore, standard printer ink is made in enormous quantities by tons of competing brands. What with there being so much less demand for garment ink, there is less competition and less innovation. Sorry Heavy, I didn't mean to ruin emptees.</blockquote> No, not because you disagreed, but because you didn't do it respectfully, and because it's still uncalled for. Also, the only argument you made which makes any sense at all is that printer ink is created in larger quantities, and from a greater variety of vendors. To which I say, DTG is a very young technology. There was a point at which printing on paper was also obscenely priced. As DTG continues to grow and find heavier commercial applications, it will also drop. As the market grows and there is more competition between potential suppliers to the market, it will become less expensive. Period. None of this, though, really matters. The important part, which I addressed in my last comment, and you decided not to reply to.. was that the literal price was not the subject of his comment, it was a comment on availability to print shirts cheaply, and how it applies to us the way piracy applies to the music industry. Which, in context, makes your comment what I feel it is - just someone being a jerk. It's not that people disagree, it's that people who were not even involved in the discussion come in here and go out of their way to leave a snarky comment about something they don't even have a clue about. It wasn't you saying "I know what you mean, but I disagree because.." it was just you being an asshole to someone because you saw an opportunity. You could have just as easily addressed the person respectfully, or left it up to anyone else who read this to come to their own decision about the comment. It's simple manners. 81641 Post 2009-09-29T23:23:11-04:00 2678061 997 2009-09-29T23:23:11-04:00 <blockquote><cite>heavyprints said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>MainframeMedia said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>Godmachine said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>Lazyeye said:</cite> The opening question is flawed. You have to agree that its stealing and then debate that... no fun. How about this. Using a library book as an analogy for electronic data and the internet as one giant library, I pose this question. If you bought a book from your library and lost it, would it be ok if you found another copy laying around at someones house... lol, still sounds stupid.. This is no win here.. I'm going to watch Hoarders.</blockquote> hello, how is the question flawed? and the library analogy is weird. It seems that the subject is a difficult one to grasp let alone justify.</blockquote> I believe what he was trying to convey was the point that once something is purchased, it shouldn't have to be purchased a second time (in his example he lost something that he paid for...so why should he have to pay for it a second time? (with his logic)). I'm not opposed to this this idea, being that in this situation, the item in question was payed for originally...so downloading the mp3s won't hurt the industry in the slightest...the goods have already been paid for and his initial intentions were obviously good natured.</blockquote> 1) The question is not flawed, at all. The question is about illegal downloading of music, and how people feel about it. 2) If you had paid any attention to the first part, you'd know enough about the question to know that this isn't talking about redownloading something you already own. It's about downloading files illegally. To argue very specific and obviously much less common circumstance is pretty pointless in a conversation. It really would merit its own discussion.</blockquote> I never stated the question was flawed at all, Lazyeye did. My stance DOES have relevance with the initial question posed though as GM stated no exceptions. Either way, if you purchased the album or not, downloading it off of the internet without monetary compensation is still technically an "illegal download". 81641 Post 2009-09-30T00:07:45-04:00 2678521 12825 2009-09-30T00:07:45-04:00 Number one was simply in response to lazy-eyes comment. It's quoted in there too. We're talking about illegally downloading music and you're talking about redownloading something you already purchased, which although it may still be illegal, is not what is being addressed here. You don't have to state exceptions when it's common sense. He didn't ask about downloading things you already own, he asked about pirating music. Why is this so confusing? 81641 Post 2009-09-30T00:19:56-04:00 2678591 997 2009-09-30T00:19:56-04:00 <blockquote><cite>heavyprints said:</cite> Number one was simply in response to lazy-eyes comment. It's quoted in there too. We're talking about illegally downloading music and you're talking about redownloading something you already purchased, which although it may still be illegal, is not what is being addressed here. You don't have to state exceptions when it's common sense. He didn't ask about downloading things you already own, he asked about pirating music. Why is this so confusing?</blockquote> It's not confusing in the slightest, you're just complaining about a discussion that is still relevant, and is still technically an illegal download. He was looking for a plausible reason for why you would ever download illegally, and that (in my opinion) is one. /endstupidargumentfornoreason 81641 Post 2009-09-30T00:29:03-04:00 2678751 12825 2009-09-30T00:29:22-04:00 /me gives up on emptees at large. 81641 Post 2009-09-30T00:40:48-04:00 2678831 997 2009-09-30T00:40:48-04:00 me <img src="http://gryphonscry.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/prison_bars2.jpg" /> 81641 Post 2009-09-30T00:41:54-04:00 2678841 5570 2009-09-30T00:41:54-04:00 Let me explain it in a way that makes sense: I have a lvl 50 charizard, and he was riding a triumph at excessive speeds. So, a guy pulls out in front of him and he has to lay her down. He died, but meanwhile people cloned sheep and camaros. Hope that sorted it all out for you. 81641 Post 2009-09-30T00:45:05-04:00 2678861 997 2009-09-30T00:45:05-04:00 <blockquote><cite>heavyprints said:</cite> Let me explain it in a way that makes sense: I have a lvl 50 charizard, and he was riding a triumph at excessive speeds. So, a guy pulls out in front of him and he has to lay her down. He died, but meanwhile people cloned sheep and camaros. Hope that sorted it all out for you.</blockquote> Its not right to steal from the library, LOL. um.. on that note, I trying to say.. that in order to debate GM arguement you may have to agree with this editorial statment "my personal opinion is that its wrong and is stealing". I totally get it.. agree with it.. but I was trying to bring an analogy that may have some weight.. but im no lawyer and actually gave up half way through post to watch the show horders on discovery FTW. No one will read all of this. 81641 Post 2009-09-30T22:09:49-04:00 2690951 5504 2009-09-30T22:09:49-04:00 I think fundamentally it is wrong but this doesn't stop me and millions of others. My own personal view, rightly or wrongly, is that times change and music going digital is just another change and people being able to get hold of music freely is here to stay. Yes the record companies and bands will earn less but this should encourage them to up the ante with other products like special edition packaging and merchandise. In a nutshell I think the focus of earning money in the industry is changing. Make a wicked album, release it for free, drag in all them listeners to buy merch and go to gigs. It's just a focus change. 81641 Post 2009-10-16T09:51:31-04:00 2877271 67321 2009-10-16T09:51:31-04:00 In regards to music... most of the bands I listen to I know of because my friends share their music with me. I dont like buying a record unless I know what is on it and I cant get that from a little i tunes preview... Plus it brings more focus to merch and the live show... 81641 Post 2009-10-16T13:01:11-04:00 2879561 66441 2009-10-16T13:01:11-04:00 I first steal a band's album to listen to it, if I like it, then I'll go out and buy it and support the artists. I just don't see the point of buying an album you haven't listened entirely and you're not sure if you'll like it. 81641 Post 2009-10-30T23:12:05-04:00 3065641 48161 2009-10-30T23:12:05-04:00 I just listen to them on myspace first and if I like them, I buy their album on iTunes. No stealing involved. 81641 Post 2009-10-30T23:14:41-04:00 3065691 10688 2009-10-30T23:14:41-04:00 <blockquote><cite>luismtz said:</cite> I first steal a band's album to listen to it, if I like it, then I'll go out and buy it and support the artists. I just don't see the point of buying an album you haven't listened entirely and you're not sure if you'll like it.</blockquote> Can't you typically go to a band's myspace and listen to their cd, or at least previews of it? 81641 Post 2009-10-30T23:16:17-04:00 3065701 2961 2009-10-30T23:16:17-04:00 <blockquote><cite>luismtz said:</cite> I first steal a band's album to listen to it, if I like it, then I'll go out and buy it and support the artists. I just don't see the point of buying an album you haven't listened entirely and you're not sure if you'll like it.</blockquote> Ugh, part of the experience is not knowing. You hear one song on the radio or their MySpace and then hope for the best. 81641 Post 2009-10-30T23:23:29-04:00 3065781 3005 2009-10-30T23:23:29-04:00 <blockquote><cite>luismtz said:</cite> I first steal a band's album to listen to it, if I like it, then I'll go out and buy it and support the artists. I just don't see the point of buying an album you haven't listened entirely and you're not sure if you'll like it.</blockquote> 3rd word sums it up 81641 Post 2009-10-30T23:33:52-04:00 3065871 13042 2009-10-30T23:33:52-04:00 only album ive downloaded was he is legend - it hates you i brought it from tempest records and had to wait about 3-4 weeks for it to arrive luckily tempest is one of the best shops to get cds that they dont sell in the large chains like hmv 81641 Post 2009-10-30T23:38:06-04:00 3065911 13042 2009-10-30T23:38:06-04:00 <blockquote><cite>molasses4masses said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>luismtz said:</cite> I first steal a band's album to listen to it, if I like it, then I'll go out and buy it and support the artists. I just don't see the point of buying an album you haven't listened entirely and you're not sure if you'll like it.</blockquote> Can't you typically go to a band's myspace and listen to their cd, or at least previews of it?</blockquote> yeah, well sometimes they don't stream the whole album, oh, also I live in Mexico City and all of the music I buy here is imported so if I want to buy an album you guys can get for $9.99, I have to pay about $23 and order it at the store and wait like a month or so to get it. 81641 Post 2009-10-30T23:52:17-04:00 3065971 48161 2009-10-30T23:52:17-04:00 I'm in Australia I have to pay the same amount...9 dollar CDs do not exist here. 81641 Post 2009-10-31T00:03:40-04:00 3066041 3005 2009-10-31T00:03:40-04:00 the Lynard Skynard 8-track tape I bought at a yard sale for .50 cents today ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 81641 Post 2009-10-31T00:55:30-04:00 3066171 11245 2009-10-31T00:55:30-04:00